29-10-2004 17:06									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Studies show... you don't know what you're talking about. People love the click wheel. That's one of the reasons people are buying the iPod. I haven't seen a single review that says the Zen Touch is a better design. I've looked at the Zen Touch and it looks shoddy.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos...0501729-2780405

quote: Of the portable music players i have tried, the Creative Zen Touch is undoubtedly the finest. It feels sturdy and reliable, the interface is simple and convenient, and it offers great value for money. The playback quality from MP3/WMA files is superior to that of the iPod and older Creative players i have used. The bass is accurate and punchy, although it slightly lacks weight and tends to distort if u mess with the built in equaliser settings too much. The midrange and treble is clear and instruments are well separated, noticably less tinny than the ipod sound. In this respect the quality of playback really does justify ripping CDs or downloading music at higher bitrates than some might otherwise consider. I would recommend at least 192kbps if you are really into your music, possibly more for complex rock music with clashing guitar riffs and anything with speedy/irregular rhythms. Sound through the supplied earbuds is acceptable, but i bought some fairly cheap Sennheiser PX's and noticed further improvement. One other useful feature worth mentioning is the reset button. If the player ever crashes, (which has only happened once in 2months when i tried to transfer files on a low battery! bad idea) just press the button in and your music collection is quickly recomplied, you dont have to worry about losing any of your favourite songs! The Creative Mediasource software bundled with the Zen Touch, while being less slick looking than itunes, is simple to use and has a fair range of formats/birates etc for CD ripping. The Mediasouce player sounds good, and organising a large collection of music is helped by the feature that allows you to have several music "libraries" to keep things sorted into genres or whatever your want. When it comes to transferring files to the Zen Touch, simply plug the player in via USB and a window loads up in Mediasource automatically, then just select the tracks/albums desired and click on that big arrow.

quote: A few years ago, Creative more or less invented the market for digital audio players with their Jukebox (JB1) which still has its fans because of the quality of its sound reproduction. Its biggest drawback was probably the fact that it was the size of a fat portable CD player and therefore difficult to carry around. Since then other manufacturers (notably Apple) have stepped in with machines which do the same thing but in a more convenient size. While their sound does not compare with the original Creative machine, its the features which are now the decider for many consumers. So, how does this new Creative machine shape up against the competition? The sound quality can be a bit subjective - many people prefer a player with artificially enhanced bass sounds to true high fidelity for example - and recent Creative machines have better reproduction that the iPod, but not quite to the standards of the original JB1. For the sake of argument the sound quality is roughly on a par with the iRiver players or Rio players. Perhaps the biggest plus points for the Zen Touch are its touchpad control and its battery life. For a portable machine, battery life has to be one of the most important considerations. The ability to play WMA and WMA DRM files will be important for people who might buy music downloads. The negative points are that features which some other players have as standard are optional extras on the Zen Touch, like a remote control, or a cable to connect to a hi-fi. FM radio is also lacking, but is part of that optional remote control. The price on this machine is good but, once you add on the price of a remote it is less attractive. The ability for voice recording is totally absent, as is direct encoding. These negative points are, of course, only negative if those features are important to you. If you are going to be travelling for such long periods that the longer battery life is necessary then this is the machine for you. Otherwise you can find slightly better machines with more disc capacity and more features for about the same price as this, plus a remote. As someone who remembers hearing one of the original Creative jukeboxes, I would love to be able to unreservedly recommend this, but I am slightly disappointed that Creative have left off too many features which other companies are able to include at the same price point. But at least now there is a better choice for the public, with iPod for the fashion-conscious, iRiver for those serious about music, and now the Zen Touch for the battery-hungry, and the door is still open for someone to come with a product which combines all these attributes. The sentimental will hope its Creative that eventually do it, but sad to say, they have not managed it here.

And here we go, a single case to exemplify my point that if the Zen were in all the stores the iPod were in North America, things would be much different:

quote: I was looking for a new mp3 player and, due to a huge marketing campaign from apple, i instantly chose the iPod, i was about to buy it when i saw the zen touch. The Creative Zen Touch is basically a cheaper, and better version of an iPod. I have tested its 24hr battery life and it does live up to package claims. 10,000 songs is 2,000 songs more than the 20GB iPod. People who say the headphones that come with it are binworthy are wrong, while the headphones lack bass they are perfectly fine for evertday listening. All in all a great peice of equitment and definatley worhty of 5 stars.

Thank you and Good Morning.

	29-10-2004 19:09									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai A lot of time I'll call someone and ask "do you have so-and-so's number". They'll say yes, but it's on my mobile phone., They then have to hang up, look up the number, write it down and then call me back. Having a contact list on another devide, be it iPod or a PDA, is handy.

Surely you could have come up with something better than that lame example, right?

	29-10-2004 19:10									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Surely you could have come up with something better than that lame example, right?

I'm surprised he didn't ask for proof that not every person wants to turn on and flip through their iPod to look up a phone number, to then use on a cell phone...

	29-10-2004 21:48									#94
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Asher, you are usually slightly more credible than this, but you really do look like a moron for posting this.

quote: And here we go, a single case to exemplify my point that if the Zen were in all the stores the iPod were in North America, things would be much different:

Of course, a single case makes for a universal law. Ever heard of problems with inductive arguments?

You've really outdone yourself this time. Which is not surprising given your usual penchant for misrepresentation and plain making **** up.

	29-10-2004 21:52									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Of course, a single case makes for a universal law. Ever heard of problems with inductive arguments?

All I needed was a single case to show that it's not true that no one wants it (Tingkai's assertion). It's called a counterexample, it was not an inductive argument.

I'm surprised you don't know the difference.

The fact remains, if all people buying an iPod were given a chance to try the Touch and compare the two, the iPod's marketshare would not be identical to what it is now.

To argue otherwise is absurd.

	29-10-2004 21:55									#96
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quote: All I needed was a single case to show that it's not true that no one wants it (Tingkai's assertion). It's called a counterexample, it was not an inductive argument.

You're pathetic.

quote: And here we go, a single case to exemplify my point that if the Zen were in all the stores the iPod were in North America, things would be much different

Do you suffer from a mental illness?

	29-10-2004 21:58									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon You're pathetic. Do you suffer from a mental illness?

Do you?

Didn't you see me emphasize that it was only a single case?

And the wink right after the quote?

I do suffer from mental illness, but at least I'm not stupid.

I do want to hear your argument that the marketshare would be identical if all people who bought an iPod could also test Zen Touches before they bought it.

It would be a fantastic argument, one I can't wait to hear.

	29-10-2004 22:06									#98
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quote: I do want to hear your argument that the marketshare would be identical if all people who bought an iPod could also test Zen Touches before they bought it.

There's no argument because it's essentially unprovable. You are the one on whom the burden of proof falls since you are the one making the claim.

You aren't in a position to call anyone else stupid. Or insane for that matter.

	29-10-2004 22:11									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon There's no argument because it's essentially unprovable. You are the one on whom the burden of proof falls since you are the one making the claim.

I think it falls in the realm of common sense. Not only because clearly people have chosen the Zen Touch over the iPod after testing it (which alone would alter the marketshare...), it stands to reason that the cheaper player with more capacity and more features and longer battery life would be more competitive, and sell more, if it were available where the iPod was.

Because this falls under the common sense category, I would like to hear a logical argument from you explaining why no one at all would buy a Zen over an iPod, despite the advantages it has, given a choice.

The reason you won't provide an argument for that is because it's ridiculous and you know it...

	29-10-2004 23:14									#100
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quote: I think it falls in the realm of common sense.

Whenever you say this, it is clear that the opposite is true.

Some people have chosen the Zen Touch over the ipod after testing it, no doubt some people have not. Nowhere have you proved that most people who have tested the Zen have chosen it, which is what you would need to prove if your "argument" would make any sense. You're just speculating.

Moreover, you would need to prove that most people would even bother testing any player before they bought it. There's not enough data to prove any of this. You can bring up individuals saying X or Y, or lame market research, but it is basically beyond anyone's ken as far as arguing about it on here is concerned.

I have never said that nobody would buy a Zen over an ipod. Clearly, there are some sad individuals who actually like looking uncool. People buy these things for many reasons, and most of them don't care much about tech specs.

But as I said, this is nothing more than speculation. One could give reasons why the ipod has 92% of the hard drive player market, but in your case the reasons are unsupported by conclusive evidence.

Congratulations on producing a patently ridiculous and unsupported argument.

	29-10-2004 23:20									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Whenever you say this, it is clear that the opposite is true. Some people have chosen the Zen Touch over the ipod after testing it

You've just conceded right there that given the choice, some people change their mind. That, in turn, alters marketshare.

Thank you, come again.

quote: no doubt some people have not. Nowhere have you proved that most people who have tested the Zen have chosen it, which is what you would need to prove if your "argument" would make any sense. You're just speculating.

Most people may not choose it, but my argument was the marketshare would be different. Apple would indeed have a lower marketshare if Creative could provide adequate supply.

quote: I have never said that nobody would buy a Zen over an ipod.

Tingkai did. I referenced him specifically.

quote: Clearly, there are some sad individuals who actually like looking uncool.

The sad individuals are those who buy the iPods to "look cool". Some of us don't need fashion accessories to look cool, we're cool by default.

	30-10-2004 00:43									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Surely you could have come up with something better than that lame example, right?

Kuch, there are people who can't figure out how to set the clock on their DVD so for these people, having a second device with a contact list is a necessity.

Trust me, I deal with them all the time.

	30-10-2004 00:48									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Asher quote: quote: I have never said that nobody would buy a Zen over an ipod. Tingkai did. I referenced him specifically.

No I didn't.

You're the only person saying that if people could see both, they'd choose product A over product B.

And you have failed to provide any proof for your claim that everyone would buy the Zen Touch if the stores had them in stock.

	30-10-2004 00:50									#104
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quote: The sad individuals are those who buy the iPods to "look cool".

I have to second this, again.

The iPod is the Windows of the HD Player world. To own one is passe.

	30-10-2004 01:01									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Asher The sad individuals are those who buy the iPods to "look cool". Some of us don't need fashion accessories to look cool, we're cool by default.

This is why companies should never let tech geeks control the final product.

Design matters. The vast majority of consumers do not buy a product because it has 11 doohickeys more than another product.

There is a simple concept: give people what they want, make it look good and make it easy to use. With the exception of Apple, the computer industry still hasn't figured this out.

On second thoughts, Microsoft produces some good looking keyboards and mouses. I've got the Desktop Elite and I bought it because it has the functions I need and it looks good. I actually wanted the keyboard that comes with Desktop 3.0, but the idiots at Microsoft won't sell it seperately and the mouse that comes with it looks like crap. MS still hasn't figured out basic marketing.

	30-10-2004 01:03									#106
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quote: You've just conceded right there that given the choice, some people change their mind. That, in turn, alters marketshare.

Sure, but it doesn't go just one way.

quote: Most people may not choose it, but my argument was the marketshare would be different. Apple would indeed have a lower marketshare if Creative could provide adequate supply.

That's a fallacious inference. For one, you haven't proved that there is a massive shortage of Zens. A couple of examples does not a worldwide shortage make.

Secondly, the fact that people might change their minds if given a choice does not speak in favour of them choosing one over the other. For all we know, given a choice more people might choose an ipod. It depends what they want. As I said, not everyone cares about the things that people like you care about.

In the absence of some proof, your point has not been established, by "common sense" or anything else.

If you had any sense of honesty at all, you would admit that we just don't know.

quote: The sad individuals are those who buy the iPods to "look cool". Some of us don't need fashion accessories to look cool, we're cool by default.

Nah...

	30-10-2004 01:21									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Asher http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos...0501729-2780405 And here we go, a single case to exemplify my point that if the Zen were in all the stores the iPod were in North America, things would be much different: Thank you and Good Morning.

Sorry try again.

I said: "I haven't seen a single review that says the Zen Touch is a better design. I've looked at the Zen Touch and it looks shoddy."

None of the "reviews" you mentioned talked about design.

And the actions of one person cannot be exptrapolated to the majority.

	30-10-2004 01:22									#108
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My 4G iPod shipped today with UPS Ground. Let's see how long it takes the get there .

	30-10-2004 01:50									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Kuch, there are people who can't figure out how to set the clock on their DVD so for these people, having a second device with a contact list is a necessity. Trust me, I deal with them all the time.

So you're saying that Apple is marketing to idiots? Thanks for telling me what I already knew

	30-10-2004 01:57									#110
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quote: My 4G iPod shipped today with UPS Ground. Let's see how long it takes the get there

How much did you pay for the ipod mini?

Imran, I hate to say this, but I can't agree with your decision to by crapware like that. If you were going to go apple, you should have gone with something that wasn't overpriced and underpowered--in other words, a regular ipod.

	30-10-2004 02:01									#111
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So Asher says that when customers have choice they will choose the Zen Touch.

This is updated hourly from amazon.com

No Zen.

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	30-10-2004 02:03									#112
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quote: How much did you pay for the ipod mini? Imran, I hate to say this, but I can't agree with your decision to by crapware like that. If you were going to go apple, you should have gone with something that wasn't overpriced and underpowered--in other words, a regular ipod.

Um... Q? 4G stands for 4th Generation! It's 20 GB. It is a regular iPod .

And it was $269.

	30-10-2004 02:07									#113
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Amazon UK's list updated every day. Again the Zen Touch is in stock

At least it cracks the top 5 this time. But still pwned by Apple's players.

Nuff said really

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	30-10-2004 02:09									#114
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Actually the only reason that the ZT is on the UK list is that there is a long standing shortage of ipod minis in the UK.

	30-10-2004 02:09									#115
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The iRiver HD player seems to be selling well in Britain . That one looked impressive as well.

	30-10-2004 02:14									#116
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quote: The iRiver HD player seems to be selling well in Britain.

Only because there are only two models of regular ipod on sale there. The minis are still really hard to get, apparently.

Still, iriver has a good reputation, and it does look a lot better than the ZT.

	30-10-2004 02:20									#117
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The IRiver is a tech-head's dream. Suprised that Asher isn't whoring for that.

	30-10-2004 02:58									#118
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iRiver is also a Korean company.

	30-10-2004 04:17									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai This is why companies should never let tech geeks control the final product.

Don't be so sure.

The Mac may be chic, but tech geeks designed and owned the PC world.

Look how that ended up.

quote: There is a simple concept: give people what they want, make it look good and make it easy to use. With the exception of Apple, the computer industry still hasn't figured this out.

In a media player, I want:
1) An affordable price
2) Choice in the online store I can buy from
3) Support for WMA format
4) Long battery life
5) Great sound quality

The iPod doesn't really offer any of those. I'm sure I'm not the only one with the same, or similar, list of requirements.

In a computer, I want:
1) An affordable price
2) Large software support
3) Choice in hardware and hardware vendors
4) Limitless upgradability

Apple doesn't really offer any of these.

quote: MS still hasn't figured out basic marketing.

So if Apple is the king of marketing (with 2% marketshare), and MS hasn't figured it out (95% marketshare), what does that say about your argument?

I'm having difficulty correlating what you're saying to the real world. Simply because it's true for some people, but not all.

Consumers love choice. Give people what they want.

Apple is all about vendor lock-in.

	30-10-2004 04:19									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Only because there are only two models of regular ipod on sale there.

Remember, we went over this the last time we had a thread like this.

Amazon indexes the Zens multiple times for whatever reason, in different entries, splitting the sales...