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Jon Miller
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AO is a lot more intensive (from what I hvae seen) than EQ2.
Of course, from what I have heard, starwars galaxies is the most intensive of all.
JM
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General Ludd
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Minion of the Dominion
Aug 2001
time: 05:22
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My opinion of WoW has sunk after playing it some more. It seems rather shallow once you have played it for a while.
One of the key focuses of WoW was supposed to be PvP, but they've made the majority of their servers (in beta, atleast) non-pvp. Which makes absolutely no sense at all. I really do not understand why they did this - the game mechanics don't even acomodate it. For instance I, as an undead, ran to the dwarven lands (all the way to the newbie zone). All the NPCs would try to kill me on sight, of course, but they are easy enough to get by. So I'm there with all the the dwarves, gnomes, humans and elves - I can't talk to them, they can't talk to me. We can't group. We can't trade. We can't fight (without it being "declared" by one party by either toggling pvp on or killing an npc). So, what the ****'s the point?
And then, even when you do get to fighting - whether it be consensual on a PvE server or on a PvP server, there is still no point. You don't get anythign from it and your opponent losses nothign from it - not even a loss in durability (provided they go back to their corpse).
Supposedly they intend to include some sort of 'honour point' system that will give purpose to PvP and some sort of "battlegrounds" that will make PvP more common in the PvE servers. But if they haven't gotten around to doing this yet and the game's being released in a weak, I'm inclined to believe that they're shifting from what they set out to do and are instead going the path of EverQuest and making yet another pointless level-grind.
All that aside, I don't think there's enough on the character side of thigns to keep the game interesting. Granted, all of the individual classes are vastly different from each other and offer a completely different experience, but that's where the variety ends. The difference between the different races is sparce - the new racial traits have helped in this regard, but for the most part the abilities are not very signifigant. There is also very little customization in how your character developes - limited only to talents which augment the same skills every single person of your class has. I haven't played long enough to say how much of a difference the talents end up having in the late levels, but I don't feel there will ever be much variety between characters outside what class they are.
And in the same note, while the quest system is really nice and makes the game alot more interesting, it really only works for your first character because it's always the same.
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General Ludd
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Minion of the Dominion
Aug 2001
time: 05:22
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Dwarf
Stoneform: Activate to gain immunity to poison, disease, and bleed
Gun Specialization: Increase Gun Skill
Frost Resistance: Increase Cold Resistance
Treasure Finding: Activate to see treasure chests on mini map - lasts until canceled - no cooldown
Gnome
Escape Artist: Activate to break out of a Root or Snare effect
Expansive Mind: Increase Intelligence
Arcane Resistance: Increase Arcane Resistance
Engineering Specialist: Increase skill bonus to Engineering
Human
Perception: Activate to increase stealth detection radius
The Human Spirit: Increase Spirit
Diplomacy: Bonus to faction point gain
Sword Specialization: Increase Sword skill
Night Elf
Shadowmeld: Activate while immobile and out of combat to enter stealth mode
Quickness: Dodge chance increased
Wisp Spirit: Become a wisp when dead with movement speed increase
Nature Resistance: Increase Nature Resistance
Orc
Blood Fury: Activate to increase Strength
Hardiness: Increase resistance to stun & knockout effects
Command: Pet melee damage increased
Axe Specialization: Increase to Axe skill
Tauren
War Stomp: Activate to stun opponents
Endurance: Max Health increased
Cultivation: Increase skill bonus to Herbalism
Nature Resistance: Increase Nature Resistance
Troll
Berserking: Activate when "Wounded" to increase melee & spellcasting speed
Regeneration: Increase health regen bonus
Beast Slaying: Increase damage bonus to Beasts
Throwing Weapon Specialization: Increase Throwing Weapon skill.
Undead
Will of the Forsaken: Activate to become immune to fear, sleep, and charm effects
Cannibalize: Increase health regeneration while consuming a corpse
Underwater Breathing: Underwater breath increased
Shadow Resistance: Increase Shadow Resistance
They sound better than they actually are. The "immunities" are skills that you have to manually activate and have a regen time. Really each race only gets one unique skill that's actually meaningful and a few others that are pretty much meaningless. A whole 15 extra points to herbalism? That's beyond useless (especially if you aren't a herbalist). Certain race/class combinations effectively don't even get any traits, because they are no use to them.
Last edited by General Ludd on 17-11-2004 at 08:13
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Jon Miller
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There are laser cannons, assault rifles, plasma rifles, and grenade launchers in AO
as well as sword, maces, and big logs
JM
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DrSpike
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Enthusiastic member of Apolyton
Sep 2001
time: 05:22
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quote:
Originally posted by General Ludd
My opinion of WoW has sunk after playing it some more. It seems rather shallow once you have played it for a while.
One of the key focuses of WoW was supposed to be PvP, but they've made the majority of their servers (in beta, atleast) non-pvp. Which makes absolutely no sense at all. I really do not understand why they did this - the game mechanics don't even acomodate it. For instance I, as an undead, ran to the dwarven lands (all the way to the newbie zone). All the NPCs would try to kill me on sight, of course, but they are easy enough to get by. So I'm there with all the the dwarves, gnomes, humans and elves - I can't talk to them, they can't talk to me. We can't group. We can't trade. We can't fight (without it being "declared" by one party by either toggling pvp on or killing an npc). So, what the ****'s the point?
And then, even when you do get to fighting - whether it be consensual on a PvE server or on a PvP server, there is still no point. You don't get anythign from it and your opponent losses nothign from it - not even a loss in durability (provided they go back to their corpse).
Supposedly they intend to include some sort of 'honour point' system that will give purpose to PvP and some sort of "battlegrounds" that will make PvP more common in the PvE servers. But if they haven't gotten around to doing this yet and the game's being released in a weak, I'm inclined to believe that they're shifting from what they set out to do and are instead going the path of EverQuest and making yet another pointless level-grind.
All that aside, I don't think there's enough on the character side of thigns to keep the game interesting. Granted, all of the individual classes are vastly different from each other and offer a completely different experience, but that's where the variety ends. The difference between the different races is sparce - the new racial traits have helped in this regard, but for the most part the abilities are not very signifigant. There is also very little customization in how your character developes - limited only to talents which augment the same skills every single person of your class has. I haven't played long enough to say how much of a difference the talents end up having in the late levels, but I don't feel there will ever be much variety between characters outside what class they are.
And in the same note, while the quest system is really nice and makes the game alot more interesting, it really only works for your first character because it's always the same. |
Interesting.
I found with CoH the quests (missions) became too samey after a while as well. Having a more quest based system rather than lots of hunting sounds great, but it's not without it's own problems IMO.
I also agree about differentiation within class. Compared to even something like NWN there doesn't seem a lot here. I suppose the classes being distinct and quite quick levelling help with alts though.
As regards PvP I think you need to be a bit more patient. EQ2 doesn't have any PvP at all on release, and CoH is doing it in an expansion. Not many games have good PvP on release. At least there is a base there, and I'm sure they will develop it to add some endgame content.
As regards roleplaying, come on, you always knew it was going to be sparse. 
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General Ludd
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Minion of the Dominion
Aug 2001
time: 05:22
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quote:
Originally posted by DrSpike
As regards PvP I think you need to be a bit more patient. EQ2 doesn't have any PvP at all on release, and CoH is doing it in an expansion. Not many games have good PvP on release. At least there is a base there, and I'm sure they will develop it to add some endgame content. |
I don't really know about CoH, but atleast EQ2 has always said that they've had no plans for PvP - which isn't a surprise, since EQ has always been the posterboy of the camp/level/horde playstyle. But World of Warcraft was advertising PvP as key feature, and they've neglected it. I really don't understand why PvP is such a taboo. Look at Dark Age of Camelot, for instance. Every server has meaningful and plentiful PvP and at the same time has safe zones for the cowards people who want something different to camp monsters in all day long. It's not executed the way I would personally want things(I think the PvP servers in WoW would be set up pretty good if PvP had some meaning to it), but it's been a very succesful format and there are few complaints about it from the players one way or the other. Infact, virtually everyone looks forward to being powerful enough to help out their realm in DAoC, and all the high end players end up fighting PvP the majority of their time rather than camping monsters.
I think the problem is that alot of people hear PvP and think there's going to be a some level 60 guy waiting at the spawn to point to kill them as soon as they start their character. It's probably the shity EQ PvP servers or the UO free-for-all (which I kind of like, actually, although UO didn't execute it as well as it could of) that have made so many people completely afraid of the term.
quote:
As regards roleplaying, come on, you always knew it was going to be sparse. |
Yeah... but I was optimistic for a while there. 
The official word is that they have no plans of making a RP-PvP server but will "continue to monitor the situation" 
Yeah, I'll be skipping on this WoW. And EQ2.
I'm still tempted by the Roleplay server on the original EQ - it's ruleset is almsot exactly what I'm looking for... too bad it's stuck onto the worst game mechanics ever.
*sigh* Why do MMORPGs always have to suck so?
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Jon Miller
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camp/level is a lot bigger in AO
JM
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Jon Miller
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of course PvP is the best I ahve seen too
arenas
sectors which are politically up for grabs
anyone who is flagged (you get flagged by attacking flagged people, choosing to be flagged, or attacking city guards)
and most importantly, the huge battles that decide who controls the notum mines (which give bonuses to you and your ORG (Guild) as well as give XP bonuses to your entire side)
Jon Miller
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DrSpike
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Enthusiastic member of Apolyton
Sep 2001
time: 05:22
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quote:
Originally posted by General Ludd
I don't really know about CoH, but atleast EQ2 has always said that they've had no plans for PvP - which isn't a surprise, since EQ has always been the posterboy of the camp/level/horde playstyle. But World of Warcraft was advertising PvP as key feature, and they've neglected it. I really don't understand why PvP is such a taboo. Look at Dark Age of Camelot, for instance. Every server has meaningful and plentiful PvP and at the same time has safe zones for the cowards people who want something different to camp monsters in all day long. It's not executed the way I would personally want things(I think the PvP servers in WoW would be set up pretty good if PvP had some meaning to it), but it's been a very succesful format and there are few complaints about it from the players one way or the other. Infact, virtually everyone looks forward to being powerful enough to help out their realm in DAoC, and all the high end players end up fighting PvP the majority of their time rather than camping monsters.
I think the problem is that alot of people hear PvP and think there's going to be a some level 60 guy waiting at the spawn to point to kill them as soon as they start their character. It's probably the shity EQ PvP servers or the UO free-for-all (which I kind of like, actually, although UO didn't execute it as well as it could of) that have made so many people completely afraid of the term.
Yeah... but I was optimistic for a while there.
The official word is that they have no plans of making a RP-PvP server but will "continue to monitor the situation"
Yeah, I'll be skipping on this WoW. And EQ2.
I'm still tempted by the Roleplay server on the original EQ - it's ruleset is almsot exactly what I'm looking for... too bad it's stuck onto the worst game mechanics ever.
*sigh* Why do MMORPGs always have to suck so? |
As I said, it looks like a decent base it there, and all MMORPGs (even DAoC by all accounts) had problems on release. I think WoW will have good PvP in it.
PvP is a strange thing though.........it get so much coverage (essentially because killing monsters can get boring after a while) yet not many games do it well.
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Jon Miller
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I think it is important to have semiconsensual PvP, or else someway to punish the *******s out there (like in RL they get taken to jail, what could work in game).
Now the game companies want the *******s to play and pay also. So removing their account if they are an ******* won't work. Therefore to limit the *******s, you must have limited PvP (limited PvP also means that you don't really have to ballance the classes for PvP).
Also, in order to encourage PvP there should be reasons to do it. In AO, you can fight over land (which gives you bonuses), get personal titles about how good of PvPer you are (these are for status only), and get access to rare monsters (one of the dragons lives in a PvP enabled dungeon, so first you have to kill the other adventuring party, and than you get to kill the monster, who only spawns once every 18 hours). The first and the last are both things that I think are very interesting, and I wish other games had similiar things.
Jon Miller
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Jon Miller
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Just thought of another idea. If you are an *******, than you will be chased by bounty hunters. The number and strength of the bounty hunters will depend on your level and how assholish you are. The bounter hunters will be tough, and will provide no loot or XP when killed; they can, however, kill you. This would of course only work if dying was bad.
So basically, how *******s would be kept in check is that they would be dying at inopportune times, and so they would not like it and would not as as *******ish.
Jon Miller
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General Ludd
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Minion of the Dominion
Aug 2001
time: 05:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Skanky Burns
An interesting question is how to do PvP well. |
Well, that depend son the game of course.
I think Shadowbane did quite well. It's open PvP, people can be "ganked" but that's really the whole idea of the game. If you want protection you join a guild and build a city. There are no lone-wolf 'gankers' because they can't survive alone, so it becomes guilds vs guilds and for the most part it's all group combat.
The game itself wasn't that great, and they could of done alot better. They should of made the city guards that youc an hire much stronger. There should of been resources and more purpose to the cities that you can build, and the world should of been 100 times more interesting than it was, rather than the cut and pasted hunting areas scattered admist deadlands.
If you want less "hardcore" rules, than the PvP servers in WoW are pretty good. If pvp was given a purpose - the ability to capture towns and influence hunting areas in that fashion, or perhaps also be able to capture relics which grant your 'team' bonuses, like in Dark Age of Camelot - another game that did it well, although went overboard in the safe zones in my opinion. (I hear there's been some changes in that department, I don't know what. But from when I played I felt that the frontier zones where too unimportant and small, and that they should either of been exapnded greatly and/or the gatehouse defenses should of been made mortal so that a large raid from an opposing team could theoretically make it into their enemies homeland - and perhaps have soem super power relic in the capitol city, or something.)
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pg
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If you want PVP play a FPS or RTS, or hell even a TBS. Why do people want PVP in an MMORPG? If you make PVP in an MMORPG with any cool features it seems to not work at all. PVP does not work in a persistant world if by killing you gain more power.
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16-11-2004 10:24
. But as I said, I have nothing to compare it to. We'll see how long I play before I get bored of it. But I don't expect that anytime soon. 
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