29-10-2004 23:55									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris I've had a debate like this with Kucidude a few days ago, and he actually argued that a proposition that violates one or more axioms in its system was not contradictory.

I said that the system was defined by the axioms, and therefore any proposition that violated the axioms wasn't part of the system.

	29-10-2004 23:59									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Well, I often laugh at my monitor; When I'm syaing ROFL, or use several laughing smileys, you can trust I just loudly laughed in front of my computer

I would like that a smiley be specially devoted to this important information because I feel the need to transmit that feeling. Of course I understand that can be used even if you silently laugh, which is different IMHO.

	30-10-2004 00:01									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker I said that the system was defined by the axioms, and therefore any proposition that violated the axioms wasn't part of the system.

1) This isn't what you said
2) Even if it was, that's still inconsistent

	30-10-2004 00:02									#64
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT Of course I understand that can be used even if you silently laugh, which is different IMHO.

Only old farts like you with no taste for life can laugh silently.

	30-10-2004 00:03									#65
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT I would like that a smiley be specially devoted to this important information

Here you are:

	30-10-2004 00:06									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris 1) This isn't what you said

Yes it is. That and the fact that people may claim to hold certain axioms, but actually hold different ones, so their actions would not be inconsistent with their actual axioms.

quote: 2) Even if it was, that's still inconsistent

No it's not.

A proposition may be derived from a system of axioms incorrectly, and therefore be inconsistent with that system, but the system itself is not made internally inconsistent by people deriving false conclusions from it using flawed logic.

	30-10-2004 00:12									#67
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OB and Kuci are exhibiting Agathon's basic structure of a 'Poly debate as we speak. Oh the irony

	30-10-2004 00:14									#68
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd OB and Kuci are exhibiting Agathon's basic structure of a 'Poly debate as we speak. Oh the irony

This is how we should put it:

	30-10-2004 00:14									#69
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quote: Only if you assume all the websites are similarly authoritative, which isn't the case.

That's not quite what I meant. I should have been clearer.

Whether or not they are authoritative or not is separate from the question of whether people will think that they are. As always happens here, people question the authority of any site that doesn't agree with them.

Winning an argument is getting the other side to admit they were mistaken. That never happens.

	30-10-2004 00:15									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Winning an argument is getting the other side to admit they were mistaken. That never happens.

It does (rarely) with me

I sometimes do say "I stand corrected "

	30-10-2004 00:15									#71
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That's not necessarily true - I've admitted to being wrong, or that the other side has a valid point, a few times.

	30-10-2004 00:20									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Winning an argument is getting the other side to admit they were mistaken. That never happens.

It is quite remarkable, isn't it?

Even when somebody makes a ridiculous assertion that a company is selling its products at a loss because their profit decreased (but is still profitable ).

Instead of admit defeat, said people tend to ignore it.

Me, I'll admit being wrong (I just did earlier today when arguing with Ben about abortion), or fight to the death.

	30-10-2004 00:30									#73
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Nobody ever argues with me so I assume I'm always right.

	30-10-2004 00:42									#74
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quote: Even when somebody makes a ridiculous assertion that a company is selling its products at a loss because their profit decreased (but is still profitable ).

I can't remember saying that.

quote: Me, I'll admit being wrong (I just did earlier today when arguing with Ben about abortion), or fight to the death

It's called psychopathy.

	30-10-2004 00:52									#75
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quote: If only more debates were conceptual. The only problem with that is that if you start debating that way, people try to use empirical claims to refute it.

Indeed

The problem here is that there are very few proper debators. Those that "win" debates here, as they are viewed at least, are those with the popular views, or those with the ability to type lots of repeatitious crap based upon axioms at best and religious assumptions at worse (not looking at anyone in particular BK ) in order to smother the opposition by reams of bloat.

A true debator is one who can deconstruct another's view, point out the fallacies or defeat it using the superiority of his own position, given the same assumptions, and most people here never get beyond that point. Half of the time people can't even agree on the most basic of definitions... everything has to be on everyones own terms... rarely can anyone play devils advocate and so the debate can be red-herringed by some onto pedantic issues that favour them.

Lesser minds

	30-10-2004 01:08									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Theben Agathon that's your best avatar to date.

Ming likes it too.

	30-10-2004 01:24									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Even when somebody makes a ridiculous assertion that a company is selling its products at a loss because their profit decreased (but is still profitable ).

Own goal.

Edit: Background so that other people can understand: Creative Technology recently reported quarterly results. Sales were up 30%, profits fell 84%.

Asher response: "That's what they get for having high quality players for low prices. Still a profitable company, sales are up. It's all good."

	30-10-2004 01:26									#78
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Heressonus semper victorus est, as an old latin proverb claims.

	30-10-2004 01:36									#79
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Ideally, my side is the first to be banned in a debate. I don't know or care if that counts as winning or losing.

	30-10-2004 01:38									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy The problem here is that there are very few proper debators.

I would suggest that the problem is that those people who can debate properly realise the fruitlessness of attempting to do so on the internet, where the majority will not counterargue in kind.

	30-10-2004 01:47									#81
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd OB and Kuci are exhibiting Agathon's basic structure of a 'Poly debate as we speak. Oh the irony

Ah, but after I state that my opponent is wrong, I provide a reason

	30-10-2004 01:48									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Winning an argument is getting the other side to admit they were mistaken. That never happens.

It once happened with ( ) Kidicious. We weren't sure if it was allowed.

	30-10-2004 01:53									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon No you don't. Sometimes your side is blatantly unfair.

And that is WHY we win. we have the skewed of advantage of having some successful real-life examples of variations of capitalist theories working!!

	30-10-2004 02:00									#84
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quote: I would suggest that the problem is that those people who can debate properly realise the fruitlessness of attempting to do so on the internet, where the majority will not counterargue in kind.

Not necessarily...there's a couple of philosophy forums (ektopos and politicsforum's philosophy section) that impress me greatly. Trouble is you have to have philosophical pretentions to have debating pretensions.

Agathon: The trouble with communism is that it relies on the assumption that humanity deserves to exist

	30-10-2004 02:14									#85
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Of course my side wins... in fact we are winning in this thread right now!

	30-10-2004 02:23									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Not necessarily...there's a couple of philosophy forums (ektopos and politicsforum's philosophy section) that impress me greatly. Trouble is you have to have philosophical pretentions to have debating pretensions.

Ok, but in general, pick an average internet forum and the idiot:debater ratio is high. A forum intended for debating won't attract (or certainly won't keep) so many people not interested in overly dialectic conversations.

	30-10-2004 03:01									#87
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No, because I can't punch anyone.

	30-10-2004 03:55									#88
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quote: And that is WHY we win. we have the skewed of advantage of having some successful real-life examples of variations of capitalist theories working!!

That was aimed at the Libertarians. You show me a Libertarian society.

	30-10-2004 03:55									#89
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quote: Ok, but in general, pick an average internet forum and the idiot:debater ratio is high. A forum intended for debating won't attract (or certainly won't keep) so many people not interested in overly dialectic conversations.

True, but idiocy is no excuse for the idiots.

	30-10-2004 03:57									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon That was aimed at the Libertarians. You show me a Libertarian society.

He's got you by the balls there I'm afraid... though I'd actually be tempted to say the Weimar Republic in Germany... but that's a self defeating example . Though I suppose you could blame that on democracy.

Democracy .