30-10-2004 03:59									#91
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quote: He's got you by the balls there I'm afraid... though I'd actually be tempted to say the Weimar Republic in Germany... but that's a self defeating example.

I wouldn't say so. I can't think of any successful society that has been run on strict Libertarian principles. The problem is that too many people need the government to tell them what to do.

If I were a fascist dictator I'd lock up the Libertarians for the sheer fun of it. Then I'd give away all their property to the least deserving bums I knew and make a public bonfire of the rest.

Now that would be a good day.

	30-10-2004 04:03									#92
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Yeh... it's why I still think the Mill Limit holds but falls apart under human nature (different context). A consistent philosophy's only logical conclusion is the mass-suicide of the human race. Not a particularly bad thing I might add.

	30-10-2004 04:26									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Own goal. Edit: Background so that other people can understand: Creative Technology recently reported quarterly results. Sales were up 30%, profits fell 84%. Asher response: "That's what they get for having high quality players for low prices. Still a profitable company, sales are up. It's all good."

That's not the point -- you said they were selling their products at a loss.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out you would not make a profit if you sold your products at a loss.

You disagreed.

	30-10-2004 04:45									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Yeh... it's why I still think the Mill Limit holds but falls apart under human nature (different context). A consistent philosophy's only logical conclusion is the mass-suicide of the human race. Not a particularly bad thing I might add.

All philosophies, when followed to their logical conclusion, advocate the extinction of the human race? How did you determine that this is true?

	30-10-2004 04:57									#95
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All philosophies, if they are consistent, lead to mine, which leads to the extinction of the human race

I mean really, ask a silly question...

	30-10-2004 05:07									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy A true debator is one who can deconstruct another's view, point out the fallacies or defeat it using the superiority of his own position, given the same assumptions, and most people here never get beyond that point. Half of the time people can't even agree on the most basic of definitions... everything has to be on everyones own terms... rarely can anyone play devils advocate and so the debate can be red-herringed by some onto pedantic issues that favour them. Lesser minds

I disagree that someone who hasn't the habit of deconstructing the opponent's reasoning is a élesser mind". It takes a specific education to refute arguments, instead of simply opposing them. To believe that refutation is the only way to debate properly is, as you'd put it, pedantic

	30-10-2004 05:16									#97
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Refutation is fine as long as you actually address the arguments and not go off on a red herring or argue about extents and real-world universalisable examples of the premises of the definitions!!!

I should think that education is somewhat crucial, though of course the art of reasoning is a dying one. Burn the ignorant

	30-10-2004 05:22									#98
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Please don't bur me. I've drank for the past 4 hours, and as such, I'm very inflammable right now

	30-10-2004 05:23									#99
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Awww but Spiffor!!! It's bonfire night soon and I need effigies!!

	30-10-2004 05:24									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy All philosophies, if they are consistent, lead to mine, which leads to the extinction of the human race I mean really, ask a silly question...

It's not a silly question. I wanted more details. For starters define your philosophy. The philosophy which all other philosophies logically distill into.

	30-10-2004 05:35									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Awww but Spiffor!!! It's bonfire night soon and I need effigies!!

My gorlfriend will disagree with me being burnt at the stake. Sorry, but I can't help you

Ask Drogue: he's your friend, maybe he'll accept to be burnt if it can please you

	30-10-2004 05:50									#102
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quote: It doesn't take a genius to figure out you would not make a profit if you sold your products at a loss.

If they have investments, it is possible for the company to make a profit while still selling its products at a loss.

Refuted.

	30-10-2004 06:33									#103
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quote: Ask Drogue: he's your friend, maybe he'll accept to be burnt if it can please you

Unfortunately I must face reality and realise that I don't have sufficient power over people to make them willingly jump onto raging bonfires at my whim .

What's a gorlfriend? A jewish golfing partner?

	30-10-2004 06:36									#104
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quote: It's not a silly question. I wanted more details. For starters define your philosophy. The philosophy which all other philosophies logically distill into.

It's late, it's too complex, no-one would understand it, I'm in no state to articulate it, or put the effort into it. I'll get back to you when I'm a great philosopher, and thus have riches and fame beyond my wildest expectations, such that getting your computer confiscated is less effort than actually answering your question . In case that doesn't scratch your pedantic itch, I'm half joking re my conceptual omnipotence.

	30-10-2004 07:16									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy It's late, it's too complex, no-one would understand it, I'm in no state to articulate it, or put the effort into it. I'll get back to you when I'm a great philosopher, and thus have riches and fame beyond my wildest expectations, such that getting your computer confiscated is less effort than actually answering your question . In case that doesn't scratch your pedantic itch, I'm half joking re my conceptual omnipotence.

Now If I were to go on rambling about how consistently adhering to any number of philosophies does not require as a consequence any advocation of the extinction of the human race would this constitute any sort of "win" on my part in poly terms? I've noticed in the past that often times when one polytubbie simply grows weary with participating in an uninteresting debate the other side likes to immediately claim 'victory' on the grounds that the bored and now absent side of the debate has somehow conceded the debate by going off to do something productive or interesting. Maybe this thread would be a good place for us to recognize that you don't 'win' a debate as a result of such an outcome.

	30-10-2004 07:54									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Each is equally useless in any real debate (not that there's many of those on Apolyton - the typical Apolyton debate consists of linking articles which are supposed to prove one side or the other - the fact that the internet contains a practically infinite number of articles on either side of almost any subject renders this process meaningless). Typical Poly debate: A: X is so. B: No it isn't. A: Yes it is, check out this link. B: The author of that link is sponsored by/partisan for Republicans/Democrats/Ferret Rapers so it doesn't count. A: So what, it is still true. B: You can't trust a Republican/Democrat/Ferret Raper stooge. A: Well prove it wrong then. B: See this link. A: That guy is sponsored by/partisan for Republicans/Democrats/ Ferret Rapers.... etc. etc. If only more debates were conceptual. The only problem with that is that if you start debating that way, people try to use empirical claims to refute it. I'm sure the Libertarians believe they win every debate, but believing doesn't make it so.

that isn't the typical poly debate you ferret raper.

	30-10-2004 08:14									#107
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Libertarianism always looses because it is inconsistant with human nature.

Technocratic Socialism:

	30-10-2004 08:52									#108
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One other feature of Poly debates is what I call "clustering". People tend not to separate individual beliefs, but defend a cluster as a whole.

This is unfortunate because it means that a counterexample which chips away at a portion of the theory gets immediately discounted and ignored. It also means the death of subtlety.

On the other hand, if you believe in holism, it isn't necessarily irrational.

	30-10-2004 10:07									#109
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quote: Winning an argument is getting the other side to admit they were mistaken. That never happens.

In that case, I haven't always won.

Berz has changed my mind, on all things, a religious thread.

	30-10-2004 10:49									#110
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I got Ned to change his mind once.

	30-10-2004 10:59									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon It also means the death of subtlety.

Those who do not believe that it is a desease think that it is a bad word.

	30-10-2004 11:05									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: It doesn't take a genius to figure out you would not make a profit if you sold your products at a loss. If they have investments, it is possible for the company to make a profit while still selling its products at a loss. Refuted.

Not really. He said not make a profit on the sale of a product if you sold it at a loss.

What a company could do by speculating with capital is an entirely different matter.

	30-10-2004 15:22									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon If they have investments, it is possible for the company to make a profit while still selling its products at a loss. Refuted.

Actually usually depends where it hits on the income statement line as profit is usually defined as Revenues from goods sold less costs of good sold.

More appropriately it would be positive earnings after negative profits were adjusted for investment income.

	30-10-2004 16:06									#114
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All depends on how you define loss and it can be defined in many different ways.

A company can also be selling products at a loss while making profits in other operational areas, or as Agathon mentions, making money from investments.

(In CT's case, the company is losing money on its investments and profits rose about $0.5 million while sales increased by about $50 million).

Asher was only looking at profit and saying that since CT is making a profit then all is well. That's not the case.

Can I prove that CT is selling its MP3 players at a loss, no, but it can't be disproven either. What can be said is that from an investor's perspective, CT has a weak strategy that is not gaining full advantage of the demand for MP3 players.

So we have two statements, one by Asher and one from me. Asher's statement is wrong for a number of reasons. My statement can't be proven wrong so clearly I have won this argument.

	30-10-2004 16:58									#115
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quote: Now If I were to go on rambling about how consistently adhering to any number of philosophies does not require as a consequence any advocation of the extinction of the human race would this constitute any sort of "win" on my part in poly terms?

You're not still pursuing this are you? Here's a tip. When I say something serious that isn't obviously absurd, it's a serious position. When I'm tired, slightly drunk, and taking the piss, that's when I go crazy. I'm not going to suppress my ridiculous, self-parodying side in order to appear the consumate debator to satisfy your finicky tendencies. Most people seem to have no problem with that.

quote: Maybe this thread would be a good place for us to recognize that you don't 'win' a debate as a result of such an outcome.

Indeed.

I think we need to get away from this idea of "winning" a debate. Sometimes it's pretty obvious, when one person and his respective position are weak and unable to debate, then you could claim victory, but that defeats the point... a proper debate should not be like that... two strong debators and two strong positions. There is no internal mechanic that I can see that would define victory, except external popular opinion but then that's BS anyway. As for convincing another poster of your own position, well it's very rare, and again will not happen with competant debators. Indeed, you can do that with very poor debating or critical technique. Arguably more successfully too (appealing to emotions).

As hard as it is for the "staple balls to position" absolutists, it seems that the conclusion of a debate is like comparing different pieces of art.... there is no logically consistent way of saying which one is superior. Now that's just conceptual debates. In political or non-conceptual debates, it is for a certain end... so instead of discussing the positions so much you're discussing their practical applications and consequences. While here there can indeed be a right or wrong answer, it is not a true conceptual debate and you're limited in terms of how far you can take it critically speaking.

	31-10-2004 15:55									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy I'm half joking re my conceptual omnipotence.

I have a conceptual impotence to grasp the concept of half jocking. In order to make easier my reading of your posts, could you, in the future, either adopt a totally jocking stance, or a not jocking at all attitude, behaviours that are easier for me to identify.

	31-10-2004 21:16									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Winning an argument is getting the other side to admit they were mistaken. That never happens.

Not often, but it can happen.

Usually, a dabate (or argument) takes place not to get the other side to admit that they are wrong, but to influence the audience. Sort of like a debate between US presidential candidates.

Very rarely, one side manages to mercilessly pummel the other side so bad that they flee the scene completely, never to return. At least not with those handles.

	31-10-2004 21:18									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I got Ned to change his mind once.

Ned is one of the few people who would post "Yeah, you're right" or something to that effect.

That's a redeeming quality.

	31-10-2004 21:27									#119
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I usually only debate with semantics, cos that way there's always a clear winner, even if it isa technicality

	31-10-2004 23:30									#120
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quote: I have a conceptual impotence to grasp the concept of half jocking. In order to make easier my reading of your posts, could you, in the future, either adopt a totally jocking stance, or a not jocking at all attitude, behaviours that are easier for me to identify.

Would a creative use of smilies satisfy you? The more colour in my posts, the less serious they are. That's not a homophobic comment, it's just that I've spent the last two hours staring at fat women's sweaty arses at the gym while experiencing a scary amount of testostone. I do believe I'm turning into a goat...