04-11-2004 01:44									#31
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I wonder how realistically the media in their own countries portrayed the race. Did they spend their time blowing smoke up their readers'/viewers' asses or did they give the straight dope?

No idea.

I think the puzzlement is in "how could they have voted for him" as opposed to "we were told Kerry was going to take it in a landslide" though.

	04-11-2004 01:46									#32
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It totally misses the underlying thread of Bush's campaign. Basically, he said...

"Kerry is not one of you. He does not share your values. He is part of the Northeast liberal establishment that is trying to force its views on you."

I expect Europeans to be totally baffled by this.

	04-11-2004 01:46									#33
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Frustrated

	04-11-2004 01:46									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi DanS made my point for me on Eisenhower. Though you raise an interesting point. Will Dubya be the Roosevelt for the right? Will people fifty years from now, vote for the party of Dubya? Will they be called Dubya Republicans?

More like the modern era Millard Filmore.

In 50 years, people will think the Dubya stood for "What in hell were they thinking?"

	04-11-2004 01:48									#35
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quote: Originally posted by DanS It totally misses the underlying thread of Bush's campaign. Basically, he said... "Kerry is not one of you. He does not share your values. He is part of the Northeast liberal establishment that is trying to force its views on you." I epect Europeans to be totally baffled by this.

Funny though, in that the Bushies seem so obsessed with things like the Fudgepacker Amendment and legislating "values" at the Federal level.

	04-11-2004 01:49									#36
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I'll go with "Schadenfreude"

The Republicans only have down, down, down to go from here. And they'll drag the USAmerican people with them. The resultant anger and resentment against their party will last for decades.

	04-11-2004 01:49									#37
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Genuinely amused by thread idea.

	04-11-2004 01:49									#38
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MtG: I notice that you don't seem to disagree that Bush's message was the one I identified.

	04-11-2004 01:50									#39
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And my point is that if they watched CNN (the real version, not the weenie international version) they'd understand a lot more.

There are a lot of people in the US who are social conservatives. Who are religious fundamentalists. Who are afraid of big-city "liberals". The supposed liberal media does display this a lot better than any foreign media does.

	04-11-2004 01:51									#40
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Oh, OK. In that narrow sense, I agree with you.

	04-11-2004 01:53									#41
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Well, I feel lots of emotions. I think I got pissed off and relieved when hearing the concession speech. Pissed off because Kerry tried to convince us to get behind Bush, and relieved that I didn't vote for either of them.

	04-11-2004 01:54									#42
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I'm trying to say that there's a disconnect across the Atlantic right now. In fact, I think there's a social disconnect in America. A lot of the places that voted for Kerry take stances on social issues which are a hell of a lot closer to most of Western Europe than they are to Bush country.

There's a real problem right now that the US is going to have to resolve.

	04-11-2004 01:56									#43
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quote: Originally posted by DanS MtG: I notice that you don't seem to disagree that Bush's message was the one I identified.

No, I agree that was the message he sold - I just think it's ironic that the party of legislatively imposing social values would reach out to the part of the electorate in favor of legislating social values and say the other guy is going to impose his values.


I think a lot of those northeastern Yankees ought to be having second thoughts on whatever in hell they thought was wrong with the notion of secession, anyway.

	04-11-2004 01:56									#44
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Who wanted to sit down and have a pow-wow? All I've been interested in is concentrating on the right rag... er, um, targets, instead of half-assedly spreading ourselves too thin. And we really don't want those people democratic unless we can guarantee that they'll elect our boys. Democracy is a nice buzzword until you get a strategically important democratic country that is hostile to US interests and policies. If that happens, then, well, you have to give them a little more democracy until they get it right.

Hard to argue with that statement...other than to say that I believe that you were in the minority of the anti-Bush crowd.

	04-11-2004 01:57									#45
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I went through denial, anger and bargain already...

	04-11-2004 01:57									#46
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KH: I agree with much of this. Maybe I should have put WotanAnubis as the addressee of my post. I was addressing it at him.

	04-11-2004 01:57									#47
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quote: More like the modern era Millard Filmore. In 50 years, people will think the Dubya stood for "What in hell were they thinking?"

History will be the judge.

	04-11-2004 01:58									#48
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Not arguing with you. Just clarifying points

	04-11-2004 01:59									#49
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Schadenfreude.

Couldn't help it.
Couldn't help but finding it funny, as I saw those Apolytoners I like discovering how craptastic their country is.
Couldn't help but enjoying the idea that the American power will dwindle much faster in the next four years than it otherwise would.
Agathon's extasy helped me feeling like that as well

Well, I have been very tired today, which is probably the main reason why I let my emotions took over.

	04-11-2004 01:59									#50
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How did this turn into a serious discussion?

I included constipated and impotent in the list of choices, folks.

I blame MtG

	04-11-2004 02:00									#51
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quote: No, I agree that was the message he sold - I just think it's ironic that the party of legislatively imposing social values would reach out to the part of the electorate in favor

Soooo blind MtG.

Don't you get it? That's precisely the point. The socos feel that they are being shoved into a tiny corner by the liberal establishment, so they push back hard.

	04-11-2004 02:01									#52
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Michael.

World Champions

(I hadn't seen you online since then).

	04-11-2004 02:03									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Soooo blind MtG. Don't you get it? That's precisely the point. The socos feel that they are being shoved into a tiny corner by the liberal establishment, so they push back hard.

	04-11-2004 02:05									#54
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quote: What are your feelings, in a word?

Disillusionment. I suddenly don't find the t-shirts that say "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups" funny.

	04-11-2004 02:05									#55
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While I always expected Bush to win and help the left in the long run, my wife's reaction can only be described as "severely pissed".

She's at work now, but all morning it's been:

"What is wrong with those *******!?!"

"Why did they elect that *********!?!"

"How could they, are they stupid?!?!!"

etc.

I'm glad she's gone, it was becoming an irritant.

	04-11-2004 02:07									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Soooo blind MtG. Don't you get it? That's precisely the point. The socos feel that they are being shoved into a tiny corner by the liberal establishment, so they push back hard.

Being shoved into a tiny corner because they're not allowed to legislatively impose their social values? That's rich. Nobody prevented them from having whatever personal beliefs and values they want. The question is using the power of the state to impose those value systems on the entirety of the country.

	04-11-2004 02:08									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Michael. World Champions (I hadn't seen you online since then).

I'm not online as much lately, since I'm now an official scalawag, working for the Feds.

	04-11-2004 02:10									#58
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat I thought those rotated - that the House and Senate majorities were off from each other by two years. Either way, that was just a bump on the Dem road of Congressional dominance, just like a possum carcass.

Uh, MtG, take a closer look at those Dem Majorities. Some of them make Karl Rove look at a raging leftie. And in practice were not terribly easy for Dem Presidents from HST on to work with.

	04-11-2004 02:13									#59
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Being shoved into a tiny corner because they're not allowed to legislatively impose their social values? That's rich. Nobody prevented them from having whatever personal beliefs and values they want. The question is using the power of the state to impose those value systems on the entirety of the country.

Being able to impose their values on their own local communities using the power of their own state governments. Not everyones a libertarian, and not being a libertarian doesnt necessarily make one a neanderthal. As for the Federalist argument - marriage amendment not necessary cause its a state matter - while i essentially agree with that, its a fact that lots of stuff that historically was state matters arent any more, and its hardly surprising some folks are paranoid.

	04-11-2004 02:14									#60
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Impotent.