15-11-2004 21:15									#361
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PAX, there is good evidence that Arafat continued to authorize terror attacks against Israel despite condemning them in public. He never really agreed that Israel had a right to exist. He never tried to suppress terror groups operating from within Palestine. He rejected a peace deal everyone outside Palestine seems to believe was more than fair.

This man originated Arab terrorism and conducted it against both Israel and fellow Arabs for 40 years. He was not a man of peace even though at times he could pretend to be such a man when it was to his advantage.

Palestine needs democracy and a leadership committed to their welfare, not just lining their own pockets as did Arafat.

	15-11-2004 21:39									#362
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I love how you justify the deliberate murder of women and children on the altar of your own ideaology and get insulted at us for calling you on it. The fact is that terrorism isn't working, costs the Palestinians many would be supporters, and is against thier long term interests by delaying the very thing they seek to acomplish as they blow up a bus of school kids.

I'm not justifying terrorism. Terrorism is not my ideology. Justice and equality is what I believe in. I believe that denying people water, fertile land, equal rights, and etc is murder.

	15-11-2004 22:09									#363
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quote: Originally posted by Pax I'm not justifying terrorism. Terrorism is not my ideology. Justice and equality is what I believe in. I believe that denying people water, fertile land, equal rights, and etc is murder.

I dont own any fertile land. I insist that all those who do be prosecuted for my murder, immediately.

	15-11-2004 22:11									#364
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quote: Originally posted by Pax I'm not justifying terrorism.

Actually you are. Your self-righteous diatribe about the evils inflicted on South African blacks in response to a condemnation of the use of terrorism was very much a justification for the practice.

	15-11-2004 22:28									#365
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Washington ordered Sullivan to campaign accross Indian country, and Sullivan burned down 40 villages- since Washington gave the orders for the campaign, he is complicit in the outcomes. its pretty simple.

Not as simple as you would like. The campaign was to eliminate the war making capability of the Iriquois and was a meeting of two armies Sullivan vs. Butler & Banks. When did Arafat ever accomplish this or even set this out as a goal? As for the 40 plus settlements burned, when has there ever been warfare that has not also targetted the war making capabilites of the armed nations. Certainly this has not been an approach taken by Arafat.

Also, in the burning of the settlements there is no recorded record of actual civilian deaths although one would be naive to think there were none. The point being though the efforts were not so much targeting civilians as the means for the Iriquois to continue to wage war.

So again when we speak of means not ends: (The ends have been discussed here already showing Arafats modus operandi was not to benefit the Pals, but to support his own need to prolong conflict in order to maintain his death grip on his people)

Washington sends armies under nominal control of Sullivan to deal with armed raids by Iriquois as a security measure as Colonial settlements were being raided. He targets war making capability to bring a cessation of hositlities/peace to the region, including head to head attack of military as well as removing their war making capaibility by destroying food stocks, supplies etc..

Arafat - target exclusively civilians of no military value.

	15-11-2004 23:43									#367
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FWIW, Arafat, teh Reagan, and many of the founding fathers were thuggish bastards.

	16-11-2004 00:33									#368
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Isn't everyone tired of talking about Arafat yet?

	16-11-2004 00:36									#369
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I'm still surprised the Pals haven't bombed a bus in honor of him yet. Maybe they have a mourning period or something.

	16-11-2004 00:54									#370
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They're stunned. Arafat dying has taken all the fun out of blowing people up.

Many are reported to experience recurring thoughts of detonating small, one-man suicide bombs in the privacy of their own homes. Or just walk in front of a camel herd and get it over with.

	16-11-2004 01:15									#371
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Actually you are. Your self-righteous diatribe about the evils inflicted on South African blacks in response to a condemnation of the use of terrorism was very much a justification for the practice.

My apologies if you feel I'm being self-righteous. First thing. I don't really feel that terrorist or terrorism are actually fair words. They're just propaganda words used to drum up support for a cause. Just like heathen or infidel.
Second, the treatment of blacks in South Africa is a better definition of terrorism. Did the whites not terrorize them? Yes they did. On a daily basis. Any time a group in power treats your life as if it were cattle I feel they you would live in a state of constant terror.
Lastly, terrorism as is most often labeled today is when a group that is likely being or feel it is being oppressed uses unconventional means to defend themselves or protest there situation. It's as if the Oppressor can label anyone a rabel rouser for protesting the situation. Why at least take an honest look and decide for yourself wheter this group has a fair case. In the case of S. Africa there is no way you look at any of Nelson mandela's actions and justify apartheid. In the case of Micheal Collins you can't look at his actions and justify British treatment of the Irish. You can't look at Malcom X's actions and justify segregation. You can't look at the actions of the founding fathers and justify the british crown no taxation without representation. You certainly can't look at Arafat's action and justify Isreal treatment of Palestinians. Mainly because the action of the Oppressor was the cause and the response of the oppressed was the effect that some of us like to call terrorism.

	16-11-2004 02:58									#372
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It seems that even in death Arafat continues to claim victims...

http://www.cnn.com/2004/SHOWBIZ/TV/...y.ap/index.html

	16-11-2004 05:39									#373
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber I'm still surprised the Pals haven't bombed a bus in honor of him yet. Maybe they have a mourning period or something.

not all Palestinians -- just Palestian terrorists

	16-11-2004 13:14									#374
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quote: Originally posted by Pax My apologies if you feel I'm being self-righteous. First thing. I don't really feel that terrorist or terrorism are actually fair words. They're just propaganda words used to drum up support for a cause. Just like heathen or infidel. Second, the treatment of blacks in South Africa is a better definition of terrorism. Did the whites not terrorize them? Yes they did. On a daily basis. Any time a group in power treats your life as if it were cattle I feel they you would live in a state of constant terror. Lastly, terrorism as is most often labeled today is when a group that is likely being or feel it is being oppressed uses unconventional means to defend themselves or protest there situation. It's as if the Oppressor can label anyone a rabel rouser for protesting the situation. Why at least take an honest look and decide for yourself wheter this group has a fair case. In the case of S. Africa there is no way you look at any of Nelson mandela's actions and justify apartheid. In the case of Micheal Collins you can't look at his actions and justify British treatment of the Irish. You can't look at Malcom X's actions and justify segregation. You can't look at the actions of the founding fathers and justify the british crown no taxation without representation. You certainly can't look at Arafat's action and justify Isreal treatment of Palestinians. Mainly because the action of the Oppressor was the cause and the response of the oppressed was the effect that some of us like to call terrorism.

Uhmmm, Arafat was running around being a good little terrorist long before the West Bank and Gaza were occupied by Israel. What does that tell you?

Oh, and **** yes people can use the violence of the younger Mandela and the Collins's of this world as a reason not to negotiate with them. What do you think the Brits were doing for God knows how many years?

You can't look at a bus load of dead children and identify with the criminals who intentionally murdered them.

	16-11-2004 13:17									#375
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... or can you?

	16-11-2004 13:26									#376
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You post at this board and still wonder if people can identify with cold-blooded murderers?

	16-11-2004 23:14									#377
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Jerusalem Post

'The IDF has reduced its activities in the territories to a minimum and is limiting its actions to thwarting "ticking bombs" since Palestinian Authority chairman Yasser Arafat flew to France for medical treatment on October 29, a senior government source said Monday.

He was responding to questions as to whether Israel would reciprocate to the announcement that Islamic Jihad and the Aksa Martyrs Brigade would halt all attacks in Israel until the PA's elections on January 9.

"We are not getting involved in this," he said. "What counts are results, not declarations."

He said Israel has already reduced military activity to a minimum, and has "eased up" on targeted assassinations. "The standing orders that have been in effect since Arafat went to France are not to escalate matters and not to create friction. These orders still apply, although we will take selective actions against 'ticking bombs,' " he said.

"Ticking bombs" are terrorists on their way to carrying out attacks.

The reduction in military action is one of the gestures the government has quietly taken over the last few weeks to try to help the emerging PA leadership, the official said. Other gestures include the decision to let Arafat fly to France and the agreement to let him be buried in Ramallah.

Likewise, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon told visiting US Sen. Mitch McConnell (R-Kentucky) on Monday that if a new PA leadership emerges that will fight terrorism, then "we will be willing to coordinate a number of different matters with it, especially security and economic matters related to the disengagement plan. This is good for Israel, and good for the Palestinians."

At the same time, Sharon told McConnell – the majority whip who is here as a guest of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee to receive an honorary doctorate at the Weizmann Institute of Science – that "Israel will in parallel continue building the security fence."

Sharon said it is important that the PA hold elections, and that Israel "will help as much as it can."

The US has recently let Israel know that it expects the IDF to withdraw as much as possible from PA cities to enable free and unimpeded elections.

Sharon said it appears Israel will allow east Jerusalem Arabs to participate in the elections, although the government's final position on the matter has not yet been formulated.'

	17-11-2004 00:03									#378
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Israel's cautious attitude in this whole matter is something to be respected Should this caution continue unabated, there is a good chance that Israel doesn't create any problems in the succession.

	17-11-2004 00:11									#379
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What did you expect? that Israel would start the babymunching, as soon as dear leader arafat isn't there to protect the palestinians?

	17-11-2004 00:42									#380
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I don't understand why so many people has something against Israel... Good that they don't do something the counterpart can exploit though.

	17-11-2004 06:55									#381
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i don't have anything against isreal or her people. I just don't like how the underdog always get labeled the bad guy nowadays.

	17-11-2004 07:02									#382
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PAX, if you view the Arabs as the whole of Arabia, which is the way you have to view this matter, the Arabs are hardly the underdog. In a way, its is amazing Israel has survived at all given the power disadvantage she faces.

	17-11-2004 07:06									#383
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But they don't. I don't recall the reformed Mandela being labeled the bad guy in world opinion. I wasn't around then, but I don't think Ghandi or MLK Jr., were labeled as bad guys in world opinion. But then again, they didn't have anthing to do with civies murdering other civies for their cause. That might have something to do with it.

	17-11-2004 08:27									#384
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quote: Originally posted by Ned PAX, if you view the Arabs as the whole of Arabia, which is the way you have to view this matter, the Arabs are hardly the underdog. In a way, its is amazing Israel has survived at all given the power disadvantage she faces.

I'd have to age with Ned. Look at the population avantage the Arabs have, the economic advatage, the energy production advantage, the advantage in GDP, the advantage, in steel production, the advantage in agricultural output, the advantage in just about everything you can think of. Only a fool would say Israel is the underdog.

Israel likely only survived because they were given access to American, weapons, training, supplies, finance, and foreign Aid. Other wise the Arabs would have killed every Jew in Israel long ago just as they killed or exiled every Jew in every other part of the Middle East. In the whole Arab world Morrocco is the only country which hasn't expelled their Jews.

	17-11-2004 10:49									#385
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Okay folks, more grist for the rumor mill:

quote: 'Arafat's death caused by liver disease' By JOSEPH NASR AND SARI COHEN Yasser Arafat suffered from cirrhosis – widespread disruption of normal liver structure usually caused by alcohol abuse – although he was "a true water drinker," the French newspaper Le Monde reported Wednesday. Quoting medical sources familiar with Arafat's medical file, France's most prestigious daily reported that "the most probable scenario is that Arafat's death was due to multiple causes. His coma must have been cause by an aggravation of his hepatic system, in other words his cirrhosis, culminating in a hemorrhage."

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satell...d=1100578394327

The question here is, was this sufficient to cause all the symptoms we saw beforehand, or is it itself another symptom that points to something else?

	17-11-2004 12:43									#386
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor there is a good chance that Israel doesn't create any problems in the succession.

One fly in the ointment is that one of the "moderate" frontrunners to replace Arafat is in an Israeli jail for murder. The Palestinians like to see him released as a goodwill gesture but the Israelis are refusing.

	17-11-2004 13:22									#387
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin In the whole Arab world Morrocco is the only country which hasn't expelled their Jews.

There are jews in Syria, and the star of David is evidently visible on a synagoge and a major community building (I think it was some kind of hospital). I have seen this myself in the old centre of Damascus.

	17-11-2004 14:34									#388
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quote: Originally posted by germanos There are jews in Syria, and the star of David is evidently visible on a synagoge and a major community building (I think it was some kind of hospital). I have seen this myself in the old centre of Damascus.

Its still there.
There are small communities virtually everywhere in the middle east but to say they are laying low would be a huge understatement.

	17-11-2004 15:49									#389
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk The question here is, was this sufficient to cause all the symptoms we saw beforehand, or is it itself another symptom that points to something else?

I wonder whAt could've caused thIs man's suDden demiSe?

	17-11-2004 17:04									#390
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quote: Originally posted by Vince278 Its still there. There are small communities virtually everywhere in the middle east but to say they are laying low would be a huge understatement.

I agree. While the jews most undoubtedly have a difficult time in most arab countries, expelling or interment is not common AFAIK. It's a subtle difference, but even those count.

I must say that seeing the star of David in Damascus (IIRC its a whole row of them along the top of the building, just below the roof) was the biggest culture shock I had when staying in Syria. It quite set my worldview upside down


Since this is an Arafat thread, I do want to point out that Palestinians have seen indiscriminate purges from both Jordan and Kuwait. They weren't particularly welcome in Lebanon neither.