07-11-2004 10:55									#31
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quote: Isn't it better to enlighten people rather than dragging them into the gutter?

Indeed. Biology lessons should include details on evolution, apparently such education is lacking in the US which we in the UK (where evolution is prevalent among the public) take for granted. Critical lessons in debunking the assumptions of faith, thus helping to eliminate the critically fallacious "the bible says so" arguments and one would hope philosophy arguments so that the arguments for God's existence are shown to the public to be the weak and ridiculous excuses for a logical justification of personal emotive idiocy that they are.

	07-11-2004 10:55									#32
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Skywalker:

Being the light under the bushel I see.

	07-11-2004 10:56									#33
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quote: Faith is based upon more than mere opinion.

Do elaborate!

	07-11-2004 10:57									#34
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quote: Being the light under the bushel I see.

You can do better than that

Unfortunately, seeing as how I have eaten all the tuna in the house, I will have to satisfy the munchies with either hours of sleep. Be back tomorrow .

	07-11-2004 10:58									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Skywalker: Being the light under the bushel I see.

?

	07-11-2004 10:58									#36
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quote: Indeed. Biology lessons should include details on evolution, apparently such education is lacking in the US which we in the UK (where evolution is prevalent among the public) take for granted. Critical lessons in debunking the assumptions of faith, thus helping to eliminate the critically fallacious "the bible says so" arguments and one would hope philosophy arguments so that the arguments for God's existence are shown to the public to be the weak and ridiculous excuses for a logical justification of personal emotive idiocy that they are.

So then, when taught all this, and given omnipotence, you **** chicks?

I didn't need all this education to think of this brilliant concept.

	07-11-2004 10:59									#37
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Skywalker:

That's a biblical allusion, and a pun. 'bush'el.

	07-11-2004 10:59									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Indeed. Biology lessons should include details on evolution, apparently such education is lacking in the US which we in the UK (where evolution is prevalent among the public) take for granted.

The things you hear about in the news are extremely rare exceptions, because it is impossible to teach high-school level biology without teaching evolution.

	07-11-2004 11:00									#39
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quote: So then, when taught all this, and given omnipotence, you **** chicks?

Suppose you're god. You don't need to worry about going to heaven or hell, you're going to exist forever, your omnipotence, omniscience and infinite wealth and wisdom is assured. What is left but gratification?

	07-11-2004 11:01									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Skywalker: That's a biblical allusion, and a pun. 'bush'el.

I still don't get it.

	07-11-2004 11:02									#41
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quote: Do elaborate!

Why not!

Christians base their claim on the death and resurrection of Christ.

If he died and rose again, he is God, and the Christian testimony ought to be accepted.

If he did not, than Christianity is false, and should be rejected.

No need for the rest of your fancy skepticism, which nibbles the corners, rather than crushing the centre.

	07-11-2004 11:02									#42
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quote: The things you hear about in the news are extremely rare exceptions, because it is impossible to teach high-school level biology without teaching evolution.

Apparently not, I read in this months national geographic.... 45% of Americans believe in strict creationism, 37% believe in a combination of evolution and creationism and merely 12% concur with 99.98% of scientists who hold that atheistic evolution is the case. They put that down to creationists interferring with attempts to teach evolution (a la monkey trial), general ignorance and the prevalence of popular religion and media to teach evolution, the best of which is left to wildlife documentaries.

	07-11-2004 11:04									#43
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quote: I still don't get it.

You say it is possible to be enlightened, and yet to keep your mind in the gutter.

When you do this you are keeping your light, (enlightened), under a bushel, (bush).

It works both ways, if you look up the biblical allusion. You are wasting your talents.

	07-11-2004 11:04									#44
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Just because most Americans don't bother to remember their high school biology doesn't mean it isn't taught. Face it, the stuff taught there is useless to 99% of the population.

I'd also be interested in seeing the statistics for Europe those numbers are meaningless otherwise.

	07-11-2004 11:04									#45
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quote: Christians base their claim on the death and resurrection of Christ. If he died and rose again, he is God, and the Christian testimony ought to be accepted.

That's still faith in the story, you're merely describing what they have faith in. I *could* have faith in the deterministic properties of the freckles on the nose of the giant pixie, just as BS as God, but still faith.

	07-11-2004 11:04									#46
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Kucikoo, go read the bible. At the very least, the first and last chapters, they're the most exciting. The allusion Ben gives is in a different one though, somewhere in the Old Testament.

	07-11-2004 11:05									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi You say it is possible to be enlightened, and yet to keep your mind in the gutter. When you do this you are keeping your light, (enlightened), under a bushel, (bush). It works both ways, if you look up the biblical allusion. You are wasting your talents.

I understand that much. I don't understand the funny part.

(Is the reference to the burning bush?)

	07-11-2004 11:06									#48
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quote: I'd also be interested in seeing the statistics for Europe those numbers are meaningless otherwise.

Can't give you numbers I'm afraid, evolution is accepted science in the population in most of Europe, none more so than the UK... I'd imagine it would be difficult to find a creationist who isn't an evangelical Christian, who (thank god) are still a small minority here.

	07-11-2004 11:07									#49
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Bush!

Get your mind back in the gutter!

	07-11-2004 11:07									#50
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Without numbers, all of that post is meaningless

	07-11-2004 11:10									#51
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Smiley, it's a NT allusion.

Matthew 5:15

"Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house."

	07-11-2004 11:11									#52
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quote: Without numbers, all of that post is meaningless

No, it's an effective observation, again I refer to the NG article which says that evol. is prevalent in Europe, almost non-existent in the minds of those in the Middle East, and a minority in the USA.

	07-11-2004 11:11									#53
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quote: That's still faith in the story, you're merely describing what they have faith in. I *could* have faith in the deterministic properties of the freckles on the nose of the giant pixie, just as BS as God, but still faith.

No more faith required than one has for other historical sources.

	07-11-2004 11:13									#54
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quote: No, it's an effective observation, again I refer to the NG article which says that evol. is prevalent in Europe, almost non-existent in the minds of those in the Middle East, and a minority in the USA.

Given that a substantial minority in Europe are Muslim, I'll bet Whaleboy's off here.

	07-11-2004 11:13									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy No, it's an effective observation, again I refer to the NG article which says that evol. is prevalent in Europe, almost non-existent in the minds of those in the Middle East, and a minority in the USA.

Presumably it had the numbers there? Again, I could easily observe that evolutoin is prevalent in the US, but without the numbers its meaningless.

	07-11-2004 11:13									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi No more faith required than one has for other historical sources.

Most historical sources don't significantly violate observable physical laws.

	07-11-2004 11:14									#57
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No, faith is not required in scientific questions, for example, the theory that the Earth orbits the Sun does not require faith, nor does evolution. There is empirical evidence for that, as there is for history, since a good historian or critical theorist will take a largely scientific approach. That cannot be applied to faith now can it? Then I default back to my position that they are inversely proportional, albeit not dualistic.

	07-11-2004 11:15									#58
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quote: Presumably it had the numbers there? Again, I could easily observe that evolutoin is prevalent in the US, but without the numbers its meaningless.

Why? We use qualified statements all the time in debates and they hold meaning. You could either take it as a premise or an assumption and then address it with quantities if the need arises but I shouldn't imagine that would be necessary here.

quote: Most historical sources don't significantly violate observable physical laws.

	07-11-2004 11:16									#59
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Skywalker:

quote: Most historical sources don't significantly violate observable physical laws.

True, which is why it is significant to read the account as to the measures taken.

Even the Jews admit an empty tomb, in accusing the disciples of stealing the body.

	07-11-2004 11:18									#60
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quote: Given that a substantial minority in Europe are Muslim, I'll bet Whaleboy's off here.

Just over 1 million out of 60 million in the UK, and out of those the majority are second or third generation, moderate and educated in evolution. I can only speak from personal experience when I say that the majority of my Muslim friends concur with evolution theory, indeed in the semetic religions, it is very orthodox Jews, evangelical Christians and extremist Muslims that hold creationist views at the institutional level. Even the Catholic church accepts evolution with a caveat of uncertainty as to what caused it.