08-11-2004 19:39									#121
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Oh yeah I guess you guys are right it being a bit unfair to add the figures up, but it's still unclear what is exactly "partly creationism".

	08-11-2004 19:58									#122
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I think the majority of Americans believe evolution, but most of those have the misconception of evolution as a latter with us on top, which is incorrect. I bet those creationists never had an illness caused by drug-resistant bacteria.

	08-11-2004 22:01									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller no they aren't physical laws state that the earth will continue spinning given no other force or action having some supernatural event is outside of the realm of what the physical law says Jon Miller

Are you saying that when Jesus walked on water, an equal and opposite force was exerted on God?

	08-11-2004 22:01									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Why would they steal the body? The disciples had no motivation to do so.

You mean besides being able to claim that he rose from the dead?

	08-11-2004 22:03									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi What about saying that God, rather than chance directs the evolutionary process? I don't see how that contradicts biology, or biochemistry.

Because it's possible to witness evolution in the laboratory. Unless, of course, God is paying attention and making sure we observe what appear to be chance mutations when we examine such things. That would of course imply that God wants us to believe in evolution rather than intelligent design.

	09-11-2004 03:10									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Because it's possible to witness evolution in the laboratory. Unless, of course, God is paying attention and making sure we observe what appear to be chance mutations when we examine such things. That would of course imply that God wants us to believe in evolution rather than intelligent design.

	09-11-2004 03:41									#127
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quote: Are you saying that when Jesus walked on water, an equal and opposite force was exerted on God?

Forces require masses to operate on. Suppose Christ could shunt mass away?

	09-11-2004 03:44									#128
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quote: You mean besides being able to claim that he rose from the dead?

Why would they believe this?

They didn't understand Christ when he told them that he had to die, and he would rise again.

They all ran away and hid, rather than witnessing his death on the cross. All their hopes were finished.

	09-11-2004 05:31									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Forces require masses to operate on. Suppose Christ could shunt mass away?

Violates conservation of matter and energy, then.

	09-11-2004 05:32									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Why would they believe this?

Because it happens to lend them significant credibility, if true?

	09-11-2004 06:41									#131
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You are asking them to die for a lie.

	09-11-2004 06:42									#132
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quote: Violates conservation of matter and energy, then.

True, but then you are getting into whether the system is closed or not.

	09-11-2004 09:37									#133
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fools

I therefore declare myself your god. The world is created in my sleep as I waved my hands. The sun, merely an mirror that reflects my glory. As your god, I demand mortals to start counting posts in OT.

I thereby prove that I'm god using the holy text that is my notebook, which is the word of god and thus infinitely true. Only those that doubt reality and live in delusion and evil could deny that fact.

	09-11-2004 18:23									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi You are asking them to die for a lie.

People have done that.

	09-11-2004 18:24									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi True, but then you are getting into whether the system is closed or not.

The universe, in the sense of everything that exists, is quite obviously a closed system.

	09-11-2004 19:59									#136
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quote: The universe, in the sense of everything that exists, is quite obviously a closed system.

Given that the universe is created or whatever.....

the only logical conclusion is that the universe is nothing!

	09-11-2004 20:09									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Sava That's nice to know the church is keeping up with things. Didn't they finally admit Galileo was right in 1996?

They said he was right, but they didn't say they were wrong for how he was treated.

-Drachasor

	09-11-2004 20:12									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi What about saying that God, rather than chance directs the evolutionary process? I don't see how that contradicts biology, or biochemistry.

Maybe you don't understand the concept of evolution, but the idea is that *fitness* to survive in the current environment is the selective process.

I suppose you could say that "god" is controlling the mutations, but why bother? What's the point of doing that? For a religious person, isn't it far more impressive that he set up the universe that generated evolution?

-Drachasor

	09-11-2004 20:17									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I think you are getting a little bit ahead of yourself. I don't think biochemistry requires all processes of the human mind to be summed up as changes in brain chemistry.

In fact, could not one say, as I have, that the brain's chemical changes are in response to other changes, rather than triggers? [/QUOTE]

We know quite a bit of how the brain works on the small scale. It is basically a biocomputer that uses electrical signals combined with chemicals to process information. A working brain is a mind, it generates the mind, if you will, with the various senses providing it with data to process.

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi In fact, could not one say, as I have, that the brain's chemical changes are in response to other changes, rather than triggers?

Care to elaborate on what you mean by this?

-Drachasor

	09-11-2004 20:20									#140
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As for the Bible I would note that many, many religions have holy texts, and there is no reason to believe the Bible over them (or even believe any of them). Many of the stories in the Bible (even the new testament) are told by only one source or they are told quite differently (even contradictory) by different sources *within* the Bible. Of course, the fact there are no outside sources to support the incrediable claims the Bible makes is another reason to not believe what it says. That's going about it rationally.

Believing the Bible is true is something that requires you to have faith in it and to not question the presumption of its truth with reason.

-Drachasor

	09-11-2004 20:35									#141
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The problem is that we not only have religious extremeists, but scientific ones as well.

There is nothing in either position that makes it impossible to combine the two, which is what MOST Americans do.

I believe in evolution, I also believe in God. It God is all powerful and all knowing then why the hell could he not create a system that includes evolution. It is simply a vehicle of creationism. All creationists do not follow the "poof there it is" model. The insistance from some here that all religious people follow the same code is bigotted. I find joy in discovering everything I can about the universe, science is simply reveling in God's wonders.

Conversly, sence knowledge is infinite, and the scientists have no proof that there is no God somewhere down the line of infinity, and in fact since it is infinite can very well never know that much, it is against their own code to categorically deny the existance of God.

How many scientists believe we can achieve faster than light space travel when there is absolutely no proof this is possible? How many scientists are equally attached to fantastic theories?

	09-11-2004 21:44									#142
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I still don't understand why people worship Yahweh, rather than moron the stupid poly OT poster.......

Afterall, I can write an book too.

.....maybe I should try BAM

YOU HAVE NO PROOF THAT GOD IS YAHWEH OR WHATEVER, AND YOU HAVE NO PROOF IT CREATED ANYTHING. (OR NOTHING) YOU HAVE NO PROOF, NONE OF IT.

Yahweh is an lie created by the god that is called moron to deceive the foolish. Now you've heard the truth, repent to suffer eternality in mingapulo with banana as company.

	09-11-2004 21:53									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi You are asking them to die for a lie.

Wouldn't be the first time, won't be the last time that religion does this.

	09-11-2004 22:21									#144
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quote: Maybe you don't understand the concept of evolution, but the idea is that *fitness* to survive in the current environment is the selective process. I suppose you could say that "god" is controlling the mutations, but why bother? What's the point of doing that? For a religious person, isn't it far more impressive that he set up the universe that generated evolution?

No, because that allows you to deny any agency on the world, and makes you a deist.

Yes, evolution responds to changes in the environment. Suppose God is responsible for these changes, and hence, guides the evolutionary process.

Sure, you can see micro-evolution at work in a lab, but that's a far cry from showing how one species becomes another.

	09-11-2004 22:23									#145
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quote: Wouldn't be the first time, won't be the last time that religion does this.

I suppose you believe religious folks to be gullible, and not likely to think things through.

It makes much more sense to me that the apostles believed in the death and resurrection of Christ, only after they saw the concrete evidence in favour.

This is particularly true, if you believe human beings are motivated by a strong sense of self-preservation.

	09-11-2004 22:24									#146
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quote: The universe, in the sense of everything that exists, is quite obviously a closed system.

Is it?

How would we ever prove that conclusively?

Is this statement falsifiable?

	09-11-2004 22:43									#147
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Faith in something for which there is no evidence sounds gullible to me, BK.

Good point about FLT, Patroklos. However, generally a scientist who hopes to someday figure out FLT looks back at History and sees the concepts once thought outlandish that have come to pass, and thinks "well, why not FLT too?" If the scientist truely BELIEVES in FLT... yeah, there is a leap of faith involved. If he/she merely hopes for it, I dunno if it's the same thing.

-Arrian

	09-11-2004 23:01									#148
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every sane person believes in many things

a consistant view of reality is impossible without certain assumptions (not to mention doing science is impossible without certain assumptions)

Jon Miller

	09-11-2004 23:17									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller every sane person believes in many things a consistant view of reality is impossible without certain assumptions (not to mention doing science is impossible without certain assumptions) Jon Miller

That does not justify unnecessary beliefs, however.

-Drachasor

	09-11-2004 23:54									#150
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who is to say what is necessary?

Jon Miller