07-11-2004 23:30									#91
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Superior to all the rest doesn't equal the best possible. It's been a long time with no update.

	07-11-2004 23:40									#92
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quote: Superior to all the rest doesn't equal the best possible. It's been a long time with no update.

You are right, that even if Christ is God, that there is much more he could say.

However, none of what could be said will contradict what has already been said.

So I'll ask you again, what parts of Christ's teachings do you believe are not good for society?

	07-11-2004 23:54									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Skywalker: True, which is why it is significant to read the account as to the measures taken. Even the Jews admit an empty tomb, in accusing the disciples of stealing the body.

Yes. So?

	08-11-2004 00:00									#94
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Not that many with Christ's teachings themselves, rather, why does Christianity continue to use so much of the Old Testament?

	08-11-2004 00:22									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Apparently not, I read in this months national geographic.... 45% of Americans believe in strict creationism, 37% believe in a combination of evolution and creationism and merely 12% concur with 99.98% of scientists who hold that atheistic evolution is the case. They put that down to creationists interferring with attempts to teach evolution (a la monkey trial), general ignorance and the prevalence of popular religion and media to teach evolution, the best of which is left to wildlife documentaries.

actually, less than 50% of scientists are athiests

Jon Miller

	08-11-2004 00:23									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Most historical sources don't significantly violate observable physical laws.

there is no violation of observable physicial laws in the Bible

what experiments of scientists have included God in the experiment?

Jon Miller

	08-11-2004 00:25									#97
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* asleepathewheel pokes his toe in

Is evangelical the new right-pc term for fundamentalist?

	08-11-2004 00:26									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller there is no violation of observable physicial laws in the Bible

The sun standing still, the creation of the Earth in 6 days, waslking on water, turning water into wine, feeding a multitude with two fish and five loaves, etc.

	08-11-2004 00:27									#99
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel * asleepathewheel pokes his toe in Is evangelical the new right-pc term for fundamentalist?

No, but most Evangelicals are fundimentalists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelicalism

	08-11-2004 00:28									#100
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but the Bible says God caused that

there have been no experiments that have included God

therefore there have been no experiments that such is a violation of physical laws

Jon Miller

	08-11-2004 00:28									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller but the Bible says God caused that

Doesn't matter. They are all violations of physical laws.

	08-11-2004 00:35									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller actually, less than 50% of scientists are athiests Jon Miller

For one, that's a hell of a lot better than the rest of the population.

For another, believers don't have to hold creationism as true.

And finally, it is impossible to be a good biologist and NOT believe in evolution. It is a plain contradiction. Especially if you're a biochemist.

	08-11-2004 00:39									#103
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quote: turning water into wine

Still awaiting the day that soeone makes a machine that does this.

	08-11-2004 01:02									#104
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It's called a still.

	08-11-2004 01:23									#105
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That takes too long, and requires too much raw material input- I want something that can be screwed onto a faucet, and presto, beer tap.

	08-11-2004 01:38									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Apparently not, I read in this months national geographic.... 45% of Americans believe in strict creationism, 37% believe in a combination of evolution and creationism and merely 12% concur with 99.98% of scientists who hold that atheistic evolution is the case. They put that down to creationists interferring with attempts to teach evolution (a la monkey trial), general ignorance and the prevalence of popular religion and media to teach evolution, the best of which is left to wildlife documentaries.

You are kidding? Are you kidding?
Please tell me it is not so!
82 % of all americans believe either fully or partly in creationism?


Pulling numbers out of my ass, but from my experiences, pretty good guess would be that in Finland less than 10% of people believe in creationism. And I'm being generous here. I suspect rest of the Europe is pretty much similar, atleast scandinavia.

	08-11-2004 01:44									#107
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You're right, you are pulling numbers out of your ass. From my personal experience, I'd guess that much, much less than 10% of Americans believe in creationism. Doesn't mean it has any true basis in reality. Until you put forward numbers, I really doubt Europe is much better.

	08-11-2004 01:47									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker You're right, you are pulling numbers out of your ass. From my personal experience, I'd guess that much, much less than 10% of Americans believe in creationism. Doesn't mean it has any true basis in reality. Until you put forward numbers, I really doubt Europe is much better.

Which ones? The ones that I quoted that didn't come from me?

	08-11-2004 01:48									#109
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I meant numbers for Europe.

	08-11-2004 02:03									#110
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IIRC the official Catholic position is that evolution and the creation story told in Genesis are not incompatible. The official Catholic position could therefore fit into either of these two categories: "believes in creationism" or "partially believes in creationism".

	08-11-2004 02:05									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove IIRC the official Catholic position is that evolution and the creation story told in Genesis are not incompatible. The official Catholic position could therefore fit into either of these two categories: "believes in creationism" or "partially believes in creationism".

That's nice to know the church is keeping up with things. Didn't they finally admit Galileo was right in 1996?

	08-11-2004 09:55									#112
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quote: Originally posted by tinyp3nis You are kidding? Are you kidding? Please tell me it is not so! 82 % of all americans believe either fully or partly in creationism? Pulling numbers out of my ass, but from my experiences, pretty good guess would be that in Finland less than 10% of people believe in creationism. And I'm being generous here. I suspect rest of the Europe is pretty much similar, atleast scandinavia.

you will find that most theists (probably over 90%) could have their beliefs classified as partly creationistic

Jon Miller

	08-11-2004 09:56									#113
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Doesn't matter. They are all violations of physical laws.

no they aren't

physical laws state that the earth will continue spinning given no other force or action

having some supernatural event is outside of the realm of what the physical law says

Jon Miller

	08-11-2004 09:59									#114
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quote: Originally posted by tinyp3nis 82 % of all americans believe either fully or partly in creationism?

If you believe in a diety, it's not a strretch to believe that God created the world, but did it the way evolution says it happened. That's what I believed prior to being an atheist.

	08-11-2004 10:01									#115
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I think that is the partly, which is what most americans believe

those that believe in 7 literal days of creation is much much smaller (I know very few who beleive so myself)

JM

	08-11-2004 10:38									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Catastrophists fit in much better with a God who can, and does intervene in the world.

Catastrophists? Gah.

How about Phrenologists? Do they fit in with a God who intervenes in the world? Or do you have the brainpan of an autogyro operator?

	08-11-2004 14:11									#117
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quote: Yes. So?

Why would they steal the body? The disciples had no motivation to do so.

	08-11-2004 14:14									#118
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quote: Not that many with Christ's teachings themselves, rather, why does Christianity continue to use so much of the Old Testament

That's a good question. However, before I will deal with this, do you accept all of what Christ taught?

If so, then you have your answer to your question here. Christ did not set out to replace the Mosaic code, but rather, to fulfill the code. As such, to gain proper understanding of the NT, requires the OT to fill in the gaps.

The NT doesn't really make sense, particularly Matthew without some familiarity with the OT.

	08-11-2004 14:18									#119
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quote: And finally, it is impossible to be a good biologist and NOT believe in evolution. It is a plain contradiction. Especially if you're a biochemist.

What about saying that God, rather than chance directs the evolutionary process? I don't see how that contradicts biology, or biochemistry.

I think you are getting a little bit ahead of yourself. I don't think biochemistry requires all processes of the human mind to be summed up as changes in brain chemistry.

In fact, could not one say, as I have, that the brain's chemical changes are in response to other changes, rather than triggers?

	08-11-2004 14:20									#120
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quote: Catastrophists? Gah. How about Phrenologists? Do they fit in with a God who intervenes in the world? Or do you have the brainpan of an autogyro operator?

Hey, their theories make much more sense than steady state theories. Why else have something like punctuated equilibrium, if you prefer a more 'nuanced' term.