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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:19
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If a father dies from a heart attack, is this a selfish act?
Last edited by Tingkai on 12-11-2004 at 08:14
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:19
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It's a socratic question.
People who commit suicide typically have suffered from a mental illness which means they were incapable of thinking properly. So to call them selfish for dying is pretty much the same as saying someone who dies from a heart attack is selfish.
Last edited by Tingkai on 12-11-2004 at 08:54
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Drachasor
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quote:
Originally posted by Ming
Drachasor... I will assume from your comments that somebody close to you has never commited suicide. And that you have no clue of the pain and misery they leave behind them to those that loved him. The endless moments of doubt that maybe there was more they could have done to stop it from happening, when in some cases, that is exactly what the death was meant to accomplish... Suicide is sometimes a VERY SELFISH act... meant to hurt other people... Many doctors would agree... |
My uncle committed suicide, and my father is a doctor, and his father was a doctor, and his father's father was a doctor.
People who commit suicide are suffering from a mental illness, as others have said and as I have said. Doctors on this agree. Speaking frankly, sometimes there is more the family could have done *if* they were paying enough attention *and* they knew enough about mental illness and suicide signs. This is an unfortunate truth, and one that only makes the tragedy of the whole situation worse. If any of those particulars is missing (and the knowledge ones often are) then there was, in a practical sense, nothing the family could have done. It does, however, point to the fact that one way to lessen the number of suicides is to properly educate the populace on the warning signs.
While suicide isn't constructive, that doesn't mean you should simply right it off as "stupid." Do you write off someone that compulsively wahes their hands, sometimes until they are raw and bleeding, as stupid? When an otherwise smart individual with alzheimer's forgets something, do you write them off as stupid?
The first step towards solving a problem is recognize there is one and what causes it. Suicide is not caused because the person is stupid.
-Drachasor
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Ted Striker
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United States of America
Jan 1970
time: 21:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Drachasor
My uncle committed suicide, and my father is a doctor, and his father was a doctor, and his father's father was a doctor.
People who commit suicide are suffering from a mental illness, as others have said and as I have said. Doctors on this agree. Speaking frankly, sometimes there is more the family could have done *if* they were paying enough attention *and* they knew enough about mental illness and suicide signs. This is an unfortunate truth, and one that only makes the tragedy of the whole situation worse. If any of those particulars is missing (and the knowledge ones often are) then there was, in a practical sense, nothing the family could have done. It does, however, point to the fact that one way to lessen the number of suicides is to properly educate the populace on the warning signs.
While suicide isn't constructive, that doesn't mean you should simply right it off as "stupid." Do you write off someone that compulsively wahes their hands, sometimes until they are raw and bleeding, as stupid? When an otherwise smart individual with alzheimer's forgets something, do you write them off as stupid?
The first step towards solving a problem is recognize there is one and what causes it. Suicide is not caused because the person is stupid.
-Drachasor |
Word 
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Tuberski
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ACK!!! PTHBBPPPTTT!!!!
Feb 2002
time: 23:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Drachasor
My uncle committed suicide, and my father is a doctor, and his father was a doctor, and his father's father was a doctor.
People who commit suicide are suffering from a mental illness, as others have said and as I have said. Doctors on this agree. Speaking frankly, sometimes there is more the family could have done *if* they were paying enough attention *and* they knew enough about mental illness and suicide signs. This is an unfortunate truth, and one that only makes the tragedy of the whole situation worse. If any of those particulars is missing (and the knowledge ones often are) then there was, in a practical sense, nothing the family could have done. It does, however, point to the fact that one way to lessen the number of suicides is to properly educate the populace on the warning signs.
While suicide isn't constructive, that doesn't mean you should simply right it off as "stupid." Do you write off someone that compulsively wahes their hands, sometimes until they are raw and bleeding, as stupid? When an otherwise smart individual with alzheimer's forgets something, do you write them off as stupid?
The first step towards solving a problem is recognize there is one and what causes it. Suicide is not caused because the person is stupid.
-Drachasor |
So basically, even the medical professionals in your family missed the signs of your uncles illness?
What I'm getting at isn't an insult to your family, simply that even medical professionals can miss the signs.
So laymen missing the signs like this man's family did isn't really suprising.
Usually the signs are easy to see, after the fact.
 ACK!
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:19
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quote:
Originally posted by MrFun
Given that one could argue that suicide is not a selfish act, does in no way, diminish the pain of those who were the person's family and friends. |
I agree that death in any form causes pain and anger.
Suicides are particularly painful because people think "If only I had known...", I should have seen the signs..." And if you ever knew someone who committed suicide then you know the guilt.
But what Drachasor said is important. We need to educate each other to recognise the signs and to realise that help is available.
We need to change the way we think about suicides and to remember that if left untreated, mental illnesses can kill a person just like cancer and that people who are severely mentally ill cannot cure themself any more than a people can cure themself of cancer without medical help. And we need to remember that some suicides cannot be prevented, just as some cancers cannot be cured.
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Sikander
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Boulder, Colorado, United Snakes of America
Jan 2000
time: 22:19
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Suicides are typically the result of two seperate pathologies. Identity problems (narcissism, borderline personalities, etc.) and mood disturbances (long term clinical depression, manic depression). The common thread in both is typically depression, which in the case of those with identity issues needn't be a long term or prevalent problem.
Typically people with identity problems who commit suicide tend to be younger (when identity is less concrete and people are much more prone to reckless action in general). Suicides who are afflicted with long term mood disturbances tend to be more spread out age wise. The sort of people Lefty is describing seem to be more from the identity crisis school. They often see suicide as a means to influence others (for vengeance, pity etc.) and aren't presently rational enough to see that they will actually cease to exist and thus never see any benefit to the act.
People with serious mood disturbances on the other hand typically do so to escape the torment of their disease. This again in most instances isn't completely rational, as most likely they would bounce back from the depths and feel good enough to value their lives once again if they hadn't killed themselves. But they get stuck in pattern where suicidal ideation is the only thing that brings them even temporary relief from their torment, and as even this effect begins to fail they move to action.
The key to this as an outsider wanting to do good is that suicidal people are very rarely rational. You can't exactly convince them not to kill themselves with logical arguments and expect that the issue is settled once and for all. The good thing about talking to them anyway is that you may well bring some temporary relief to their suffering by interrupting their internal dialogue, and in general showing them that they are not alone.
This is seemingly thankless work, but I know for a fact that it has saved lives on more than one occasion in my experience. So if one of your friends is down, pay them a visit and spend a little time with them. Slow down a bit (almost but not quite to their depressed speed) and just let things go from there. Listen to them if they want to talk, express your concerns and let them know that you are there for them. If you are still concerned about them contact their other friends and family and let them know about the situation. Use some judicious reasoning here, as some friends and particularly some family members might not be a good influence, and your friend may withdraw rather than deal with them.
All of this is complicated by some narcissist / dramatic types who may eat up this sort of attention and use you to the end of your energies. These people are a bane on mankind, and their appetites can be endless. With these sorts you'll have eventually draw the line. You'll want to do so by seeing what you are doing is actually feeding them and simply reducing the flow until they find that their energies can be better used elsewhere. You could of course simply tell them to get stuffed, but there is a chance that they will use that to trigger a vengeance suicide. It's better to simply bore them, drama is like oxygen to them.
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12-11-2004 05:58
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