10-11-2004 02:03									#271
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Just convince any of the right-wing Fundie nutters that seem to have taken near complete control of the 'pugs, that it (VAT) is somewhere in the bible and they'll be all over it!



-=Vel=-

	10-11-2004 02:03									#272
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara How do VATs work?

VAT = Value Added Tax. Very simplistically meaning that at every stage of production, a tax is levied. By the time the product gets to market, it's got a hefty tax built into the price. It's a behind the scenes tax, so you generally don't notice it like you would a sales tax. The issue with imports is that you import a finished product, so that tax at each stage doesn't exist - effectively, the product can be tax free unless you have some sort of duty or sales tax in place.

	10-11-2004 02:04									#273
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quote: Money creates jobs. The two are vurtually the same thing. You only have to determine who will have the money. The jobs follow. That is, as long as the money is spent

You almost created the great circle of money!

	10-11-2004 02:06									#274
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Nope. Everyone who pays taxes is definitely not stupid, however...if you are presented with an untentable situation and do nothing, when a viable option to provide at least some relief is staring you in the face....then yeah. That's pretty dumb. If that offends anyone's tender sensibilities, then I apoligize in advance.

Everyone who can, does avoid taxes. That's something completely different. btw, you sure are conceding a lot today.

quote: And it flows both ways, actually. The rich depend on the poor, who depend on the rich. It cuts both ways. Always has.

You would have to say that to justify capitalism I would think. It's just not true.

	10-11-2004 02:09									#275
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quote: Originally posted by Japher You almost created the great circle of money!

I didn't create anything Japher. That's the way it works. When rich people buy things they create jobs, and when poor people buy things they create jobs. If you only claim one, you are lying.

	10-11-2004 02:11									#276
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quote: Originally posted by Japher You almost created the great circle of money!

Simba,

We are part of the great circle of money....

	10-11-2004 02:11									#277
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That's hardly a concession. You and I just define "can" differently (and apparently, radically differently, at that!)

As to the other....as you said yourself, money creates jobs. Where will this money and these jobs come from, if not from those who HAVE the money?

Thus, the poor need the rich.

And of course, I'm sure you have loads and loads of examples of the opposite case, yes?

-=Vel=-

	10-11-2004 02:12									#278
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara How do VATs work?

I'm no economist, but the basic idea is when you sell something, you pay 25% of the pretax price in VAT. Then you get back the VAT paid on the stuff you paid on the stuff you bought to make the thing. Net, you pay 25% of the added value that you inflicted on the product.

From the consumers perspective, it means everything gets 25% more expensive.

There are some exceptions; houses, financial services, rents, healthcare, and a few more things. Yeah, and books, because the state thinks a reading citizen is a good citizen; I have my doubts on that one, but since I buy more books than most people, I don't complain. There's a lower rate for foodstuffs - 12% I think.

And of course there's the "grey economy"; if you sell your old computer to your friend for a hundred bucks, it's not like you're gonna pay any VAT. I do not know where the exact limits of legality go here.

	10-11-2004 02:12									#279
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx That's hardly a concession. You and I just define "can" differently (and apparently, radically differently, at that!) As to the other....as you said yourself, money creates jobs. Where will this money and these jobs come from, if not from those who HAVE the money? Thus, the poor need the rich. And of course, I'm sure you have loads and loads of examples of the opposite case, yes? -=Vel=-

We only need the rich as long as they have the money and the power.

	10-11-2004 02:16									#280
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Hey...I'm all about it.

The Fundiecrats won.

Congrats! Now your man controls the big house, and all his cronies control the Congress.

Let's see what they do! I ain't scared...BRING IT!

And you wanna know why?

Cos if this silly tax revison passes (to say nothing of the rest of the Fundiecrat agenda) it is gonna FVCK this country hard....all the "good old folks" who voted for the Shrub cos he was "just regular folks" are going to find out firsthand what a good old fashioned prison-style economic raping is all about.

When that happens, any Dem with a PULSE will be able to win the next election.

-=Vel=-

	10-11-2004 02:16									#281
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Kid...but um....that's why we call them "the rich" Get it? LOL!

-=Vel=-

	10-11-2004 02:17									#282
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quote: any Dem with a PULSE will be able to win the next election

I guess that would eliminate Sava's nomination

	10-11-2004 02:17									#283
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki [VAT is] a behind the scenes tax, so you generally don't notice it like you would a sales tax.

Depends. Herearounds, at least, sellers of relatively expensive things like home electronics (TV sets, computers, etc) like to state the pretax price, which means you notice the extra dozens or hundreds of bucks you have to pay in VAT alot.

	10-11-2004 02:19									#284
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara How do VATs work?

I think that if you had some sort of equivilent tax on imports that there would be no significant effect on the trade balance.

	10-11-2004 02:19									#285
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Hey...I'm all about it. The Fundiecrats won. Congrats! Now your man controls the big house, and all his cronies control the Congress. Let's see what they do! I ain't scared...BRING IT! And you wanna know why? Cos if this silly tax revison passes (to say nothing of the rest of the Fundiecrat agenda) it is gonna FVCK this country hard....all the "good old folks" who voted for the Shrub cos he was "just regular folks" are going to find out firsthand what a good old fashioned prison-style economic raping is all about. When that happens, any Dem with a PULSE will be able to win the next election. -=Vel=-

The Dems have to start fighting back, though, Vel. They need to stop trying to imitate the Repubs on values, and instead talk simply about THEIR values.

People like us keep assuming that gross incompetance will get a party thrown out of office all by itself. This election has proven that is not the case. It takes more than that. The religionista<->uberrich alliance has really sunk their claws in. It's gonna take work to get 'em back out.

-Arrian

	10-11-2004 02:21									#286
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Depends. Herearounds, at least, sellers of relatively expensive things like home electronics (TV sets, computers, etc) like to state the pretax price, which means you notice the extra dozens or hundreds of bucks you have to pay in VAT alot.

I don't doubt you, but that seems kind of silly. If you're going to do that, then you might as well call it a sales tax and be done with it.

	10-11-2004 02:21									#287
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Kid...but um....that's why we call them "the rich" Get it? LOL! -=Vel=-

You have a sense of humor as well as a imagination.

	10-11-2004 02:22									#288
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist And of course there's the "grey economy"; if you sell your old computer to your friend for a hundred bucks, it's not like you're gonna pay any VAT. I do not know where the exact limits of legality go here.

In most countries there is a threshold limit of trade that you can perform before requiring to register for VAT. Some countries its low, others its quite high. I think the average is around €50,000 for Europe in general.

	10-11-2004 02:24									#289
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Nahhh, America has always excelled at crisis management. Things just haven't reached critical mass yet.

When they do...trust me....sparks are gonna FLY!

So sure...let's play. Let's see what the fundies have in store for us!

-=Vel=-
(tho I agree, while we're waiting for the fit to hit the shan, it might not be a bad idea to start putting together a coherent message! Nonetheless, by the time this administration is done with the US economy and diplomatic standing around the globe....nahhh, there's not even an analogy that comes CLOSE!)

	10-11-2004 02:30									#290
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According to this any sort of consumption tax (VAT) will cause a greater trade deficit, but attract foreign investment, which could be bad in the short run, but possibly good in the long run.

quote: Most of the studies in the survey conclude that, in addition to attracting foreign investment to the United States, a consumption tax may also encourage U.S. firms to locate projects in the United States that might otherwise have gone abroad. Since international investment and trade flows are inherently linked, any changes in foreign investment into the United States are accompanied by short-run changes in the U.S. trade balance. To the extent that international investment flows into (out of) an economy, the trade balance moves towards deficit (surplus). In the long run, increases in investment from both foreign and domestic sources tend to enhance an economy's competitiveness by increasing its productivity and tend to increase national economic welfare.

	10-11-2004 02:32									#291
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Nahhh, America has always excelled at crisis management. Things just haven't reached critical mass yet. When they do...trust me....sparks are gonna FLY! So sure...let's play. Let's see what the fundies have in store for us! -=Vel=- (tho I agree, while we're waiting for the fit to hit the shan, it might not be a bad idea to start putting together a coherent message! Nonetheless, by the time this administration is done with the US economy and diplomatic standing around the globe....nahhh, there's not even an analogy that comes CLOSE!)

Only morons and communists welcome crisis. I'll play with you.

	10-11-2004 02:38									#292
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Not true! Look at how many people actually voted our president back for a second round of fun!



-=Vel=-

	10-11-2004 02:38									#293
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Morons, Vel, morons.

-Arrian

	10-11-2004 02:40									#294
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Now, now, Arrian....Bush gets all his edicts direct from Baby Jesus and the Fundie Right.

You don't think for a SECOND they'd steer us down a dangerous path, do you?!?!?!?

-=Vel=-

	10-11-2004 02:40									#295
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Oh, nah, I mean it's not like they want to bring on the Apocalypse or anything. Heh. Silly me, what was I thinking?

-Arrian

	10-11-2004 02:41									#296
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki I don't doubt you, but that seems kind of silly. If you're going to do that, then you might as well call it a sales tax and be done with it.

Well, except that no-one here has heard of a sales tax, while everybody knowns what VAT is (well, the Swedish abbreviation is moms, but same difference).

This thread has left me unclear whether there's supposed to be a differences between a VAT and a sales tax; I thought not, but some comments here made it sound it's not.

Anyway, the idea behind stating the pretax price is, I believe, psychological - a lower number on the goodie gives a more positive first impression, which, so the seller hopes, will influence later conscious decisions based on the de facto (posttax) price.

	10-11-2004 02:42									#297
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Well, Haliburton et. al. would have a REALLY good year in the event of the Apocalypse tho....



-=Vel=-

	10-11-2004 02:53									#298
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Well, except that no-one here has heard of a sales tax, while everybody knowns what VAT is (well, the Swedish abbreviation is moms, but same difference). This thread has left me unclear whether there's supposed to be a differences between a VAT and a sales tax; I thought not, but some comments here made it sound it's not. Anyway, the idea behind stating the pretax price is, I believe, psychological - a lower number on the goodie gives a more positive first impression, which, so the seller hopes, will influence later conscious decisions based on the de facto (posttax) price.

I've seen gas stations here that give the pre-gas tax price of gas here, but it's not on the big sign. It's in small letters on the pumps. It's a political thing.

	10-11-2004 02:57									#299
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quote: Originally posted by Japher It was something. Not sure if it was an oversight or some sort of under the table deal to encourage trade. It's not. I think everyone can have the best of both worlds. I have long contested that this, "spend the money to create jobs for the poor while providing a valuable service for them", is the problem.

In the standard AVT system, exports are not charged with AVT, and imports are in the same rate that local goods; this is designed to create a fair competition between goods locally made and goods made abroad. This AVT on imports is NOT a custom duty.

	10-11-2004 02:58									#300
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@Kid: I don't think the political aspect is relevant in the Swedish case. There's anyone in particular arguing against VATs as such (altho there's continual calls, usually from the left, to extend one exemption or another).