10-11-2004 01:25									#241
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*shakes head*

Again, you miss the point.

Yes, I was unemployed for a year thanks to the robust Bush-era economy we have.

And, contrary to your post, I DID do something about it. And I didn't lose my house. Never mind that it was a near thing, the point is...I worked it out.

There wasn't any of this hand wringing nonsense and "oh-how-awful" b*tching and moaning.

There was a problem to be addressed and fixed, and it got fixed.

So too, will this problem, should it arise.

And that, you can take to the bank.

-=Vel=-

	10-11-2004 01:27									#242
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All depends, Michael Moore *****ed and moaned himself into a right nice fortune.

	10-11-2004 01:27									#243
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Hey now....don't you go on about the banks....which can't even EXIST in the Kidaverse (no interest = somewhat difficult to have banking)

Let's just say it's a different type of bank.

quote: (and yes...banks can and do fail. Worse, corporate leeches make huge messes like Enron and WorldCom....and when that happens, some people b*tch and moan, and others buck up and work it out. Which category do you suppose finds the greater success, in the end?)

Depends on what your goal is. If you only care about how much money you make I guess you could do real fine in a system like this if you don't mind stepping on some heads.

	10-11-2004 01:29									#244
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I think what Vel is saying is;

it don't matter what the hell the government does with taxes, I am smart enough to win the economics game. all I need is to the know the rules and enough to time to adjust when they are changed.

	10-11-2004 01:29									#245
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If you advocate (or are willing to tolerate) a national sales tax, there are a few things that you need to understand:

1. To be revenue-neutral, a national sales tax would have be 27-33% (depending on who's doing the analysis) and it would have to apply to every transaction wherein somebody buys a product or service. So if you buy a house, you pay ~30% sales tax. If you go to the doctor or enter the hospital, you pay sales tax on the fees. If have a cleaning service or home-repair contractor do work for you, you pay sales tax. You won't be able to avoid the sales tax simply by growing your own vegetables.

2. A national sales tax penalizes consumption, which might be a good thing (in theory) given the materialism of our culture. But some people, like middle-income families with children, have little choice when it comes to consumption - they've got to spend whatever it takes to feed, clothe, and house their children. They don't have the flexibility that a single man does.

3. Right-wingers are the ones who support a national sales tax, and these are the same people who claim to be ardent free traders. They don't want any kind of tariff or trade barrier on transactions across international boundaries, yet they're willing to impose a ~30% tariff on our domestic trade. So you can see what will happen: consumers will have a huge incentive to buy goods outside of the US (which is easy to do on the internet) and our domestic economy will suffer even more than it already has.

	10-11-2004 01:30									#246
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Yes, I was unemployed for a year thanks to the robust Bush-era economy we have.

I see. People are only unemployed for a year or more under presidents like Bush. Now which of those chose to be unemployed, those who were unemployed when Clinton was president?

	10-11-2004 01:32									#247
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quote: Originally posted by Japher I think what Vel is saying is; it don't matter what the hell the government does with taxes, I am smart enough to win the economics game. all I need is to the know the rules and enough to time to adjust when they are changed.

And that's the lie.

	10-11-2004 01:32									#248
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What's a greater concern -- upper class not being able to afford a yacht.

Or, a lower class family whose basic quality of life is stagnating, if not worsening.






think about this before answering

	10-11-2004 01:32									#249
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LOL!

Good point, Master Og!

I would contend though, that Moore is first and foremost an entertainer who knows his audience and simply gives them what they want...

And Kid....I just got back yesterday, are you SURE you wanna fire up the cap com debate in the middle of this fine thread?

If you do, please open a new thread and I will entertain you for HOURS beating my head against that thick wall you cast up to shut out such trivialities as facts and econoimic realities.

'k?



-=Vel=-

	10-11-2004 01:33									#250
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quote: What's a greater concern -- upper class not being able to afford a yacht. Or, a lower class family whose basic quality of life is stagnating, if not worsening.

The two are related...

	10-11-2004 01:34									#251
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx LOL! Good point, Master Og! I would contend though, that Moore is first and foremost an entertainer who knows his audience and simply gives them what they want... And Kid....I just got back yesterday, are you SURE you wanna fire up the cap com debate in the middle of this fine thread? If you do, please open a new thread and I will entertain you for HOURS beating my head against that thick wall you cast up to shut out such trivialities as facts and econoimic realities. 'k? -=Vel=-

No. I don't have unlimited resources like you claim to have. I don't have time for that.

	10-11-2004 01:35									#252
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Vel,

Your time would be better spent and more appreciated in the Gathering Storm forum. We're trying to break Legos! Think of the Storm Chickens, man!



-Arrian

	10-11-2004 01:35									#253
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AnnC - Quite agree, however, every veggie I grow in my back yard, and every service I barter for, that's one thing I dodge the bullet on, tax-wise....and believe me...I'll be looking to dodge as many as I possibly can!

-=Vel=-

	10-11-2004 01:36									#254
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quote: Originally posted by Japher The two are related...

Right -- and pigs and ostriches are related somehow in your little world too.

	10-11-2004 01:36									#255
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Only for a few years... which is why Bush is pushing for his cuts to be permanent. It was originally for 5 years, I think, just for recovery purposes.

Even if 'permanent' they will still be as simple to remove as they were to enact in the first place right?

	10-11-2004 01:36									#256
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quote: Originally posted by Japher The two are related...

Only if we, as a society decide that they are. We don't have to decide to make our economy dependent on yacht production.

	10-11-2004 01:37									#257
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Kid - Then I will take that as a concession...for now.

Arrian....on my list! I've been reading the threads in preparation for the main event!

Japher - GREAT summation, and despite what the Kid says, NOT a lie.

You'd have to be about two thirds baked to NOT be able to beat the government at the tax game. Child's play...

-=Vel=-

	10-11-2004 01:38									#258
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx You'd have to be about two thirds baked to NOT be able to beat the government at the tax game. Child's play...

now everyone who pays taxes is stupid.

	10-11-2004 01:40									#259
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Right -- and pigs and ostriches are related somehow in your little world too.

Pigs and Ostriches are related. Both are good eatin.

	10-11-2004 01:40									#260
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quote: We don't have to decide to make our economy dependent on yacht production.

I think the yacht production is just one example. Tailoring to the rich sucks, whatever, that's demand. The rich supply jobs through such goods and services. Raising taxes lowered domestic demand which destroyed jobs, and not jobs of the rich folk, jobs of common folk. Whenever we raise taxes, whether it be luxury or income or even property taxes, we risk doing the same thing. We can't hurt the rich without hurting the poor through taxes.

	10-11-2004 01:43									#261
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quote: Originally posted by Japher That they did, and incase you didn't know that means less jobs for Americans... and that is not a good thing.

Why in the hell weren't the imports taxed in the same way? Sounds like some sort of reverse tarriff rather than a luxery tax.

The government certainly seems to have a knack for fixing taxes by standing them on their head.

	10-11-2004 01:43									#262
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quote: Originally posted by Japher I think the yacht production is just one example. Tailoring to the rich sucks, whatever, that's demand. The rich supply jobs through such goods and services. Raising taxes lowered domestic demand which destroyed jobs, and not jobs of the rich folk, jobs of common folk. Whenever we raise taxes, whether it be luxury or income or even property taxes, we risk doing the same thing. We can't hurt the rich without hurting the poor through taxes.

It's not just taxing the rich and buring the money. You tax the rich and cut taxes for the poor or spend the money to create jobs for the poor while providing a valuable service for them. Please tell me that this is not an alien concept for you.

	10-11-2004 01:45									#263
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quote: Why in the hell weren't the imports taxed in the same way? Sounds like some sort of reverse tarriff rather than a luxery tax.

It was something. Not sure if it was an oversight or some sort of under the table deal to encourage trade.

quote: You tax the rich and cut taxes for the poor or spend the money to create jobs for the poor while providing a valuable service for them. Please tell me that this is not an alien concept for you.

It's not. I think everyone can have the best of both worlds. I have long contested that this, "spend the money to create jobs for the poor while providing a valuable service for them", is the problem.

	10-11-2004 01:49									#264
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quote: Originally posted by Japher It's not. I think everyone can have the best of both worlds. I have long contested that this, "spend the money to create jobs for the poor while providing a valuable service for them", is the problem.

Money doesn't trickle down. It trickles up. The rich depend on the poor, not the other way around.

	10-11-2004 01:51									#265
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@AnnC: You're assuming that the national sales tax would replace the income tax. The US might also consider a combined system, like the EU countries have.

Hm, it occurs to me that I don't know how Sweden's VATs work wrt imports. I should be checking ...

(Oh, and Americans who think they're taxed to death might care to know we've got a base 25% VAT in addition to an income tax of 30% or so ....)

	10-11-2004 01:54									#266
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quote: Money doesn't trickle down. It trickles up. The rich depend on the poor, not the other way around.

Money may, but jobs don't.

	10-11-2004 01:54									#267
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Nope. Everyone who pays taxes is definitely not stupid, however...if you are presented with an untentable situation and do nothing, when a viable option to provide at least some relief is staring you in the face....then yeah. That's pretty dumb. If that offends anyone's tender sensibilities, then I apoligize in advance.

And it flows both ways, actually. The rich depend on the poor, who depend on the rich. It cuts both ways. Always has.

-=Vel=-

	10-11-2004 01:59									#268
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Hm, it occurs to me that I don't know how Sweden's VATs work wrt imports.

How do VATs work?

	10-11-2004 02:00									#269
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Hm, it occurs to me that I don't know how Sweden's VATs work wrt imports. I should be checking ...

OK, I can't quite decipher the legalese my encyclopaedia offers on the subject, but it's clearly intended to avoid affecting the relative costs of buying domestically or int'lly. I suppose it amounts to a kind of "tarrif", but one the EU is fine with, and, I assume, one the WTO disregards.

I would like to think that if the Americans were to introduce a national sales tax, they would look at European VAT systems quite closely and thoughtfully, but somehow don't feel very confident on that point.

	10-11-2004 02:02									#270
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Money may, but jobs don't.

Money creates jobs. The two are vurtually the same thing. You only have to determine who will have the money. The jobs follow. That is, as long as the money is spent.