10-11-2004 00:09									#211
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Do the Republicans love money more than they hate the poor? I wonder... which is the stronger feeling... love of money, greed; or hatred of the poor.

	10-11-2004 00:14									#212
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx What I said was that people will look for ways of cutting corners.

Cutting corners doesn't always cut it. If you want to keep taxing the poor more and more you're going to find that out, even if you do own a large piece of property to grow your own food. You're little imaginary universe where individuals always have a choice to make will shatter.

	10-11-2004 00:16									#213
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Interest IS a payment to people for doing nothing. It started well before the 80s.

The enormous difference is that before 1980 actual interest rates (inflation discounted) were nil or negative whereas they became systematically positive after 1980. In other words, before the situation was benefitting to the borrowers, and after it was benefitting to the lenders. This change had dramatic consequences, one being the delocalisations.

Your ideology should not prevent you to understand the difference between the two situations.

	10-11-2004 00:18									#214
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No....cutting corners doesn't always cut it, however, I have already demonstrated one logical, probable outcome of this tax scheme being passed. Took my three brain cells all of about thirty seconds to find a workaround.

Now imagine what kinds of stuff people with more brain cells and more time on their hands could do, provided that they didn't spend all their time wailing and gnashing their teeth about how terrible everything was, how bad it sucked, and....you know...figured out a way out?

The human mind....absolutely remarkable when used.



-=Vel=-

	10-11-2004 00:18									#215
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT The enormous difference is that before 1980 actual interest rates (inflation discounted) were nil or negative whereas they became systematically positive after 1980. In other words, before the situation was benefitting to the borrowers, and after it was benefitting to the lenders. This change had dramatic consequences, one being the delocalisations. Your ideology should not prevent you to understand the difference between the two situations.

I certainly do not believe that real interest rates have always been zero. That's the biggest line of bull yet. FCS, there hasn't even always been inflation. Are you claiming the nominal interest rates were negative?

	10-11-2004 00:19									#216
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Now imagine

I can't afford to live in an imaginary world. I can barely afford to pay the rent.

	10-11-2004 00:21									#217
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Then, without imagination to propel you forward, I predict that your situation does not stand much chance of improving or changing.

-=Vel=-

	10-11-2004 00:28									#218
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Then, without imagination to propel you forward, I predict that your situation does not stand much chance of improving or changing. -=Vel=-

So I should use my imagination to believe the lies that you spew out. That is suppose to help me? No thanks. I prefer the real world, even if it doesn't get me very far. I don't even give a **** about improving my situation to tell you the truth. I only care about the truth - staying in the real world.

	10-11-2004 00:29									#219
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@Vel: So, you're applauding something you believe would return us to a barter economy?

The local Moderate Youth Association* would decry you as a dirty environmentalist commie.

* Youth wing of the Moderates, Sweden's biggest rightist party.

	10-11-2004 00:31									#220
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Lies? Like what? That if this tax is passed, I'll start growing my own food and thus, save money?

If you like, I shall send you a picture of the event, should it occur.

Or perhaps you disbelieve that it will actually make a difference?

Or perhaps you are just confused.

In any case, I'd be most interested if you could quote me these heinous lies.

I'll wait right here, 'k?

-=Vel=-

	10-11-2004 00:34									#221
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Hmmm....applauding? Not really, no.

Merely pointing out that, while the methodology of the loopholes will change, the loopholes themselves will remain, and I outlined how that is likely to express itself.

I'm sure there are tons of others out there, waiting to be uncovered.

The point is that it'll be easier than ever to "stick it to the man" (in that it does not require the services of a lawyer and a CPA to grow greenbeans in my back yard), and will tend to foster a greater sense of community with people bartering some basic goods and services back and forth.

-=Vel=-

	10-11-2004 00:35									#222
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I certainly do not believe that real interest rates have always been zero. That's the biggest line of bull yet. FCS, there hasn't even always been inflation. Are you claiming the nominal interest rates were negative?

Excuse me, when I say before 1980, I mean between 1960 and 1980 (but inflation was present since the end of WWII). And I confirm that during this period inflation was running hight, even at two digits in the 1970s (remember the dollar no longer convertible in gold?). Of course the nominal interest rates never became negative, but even positive they did not offset the loss in capital incurred by the lenders (loss which was benefitting borrowers, mainly the middle class).

	10-11-2004 00:38									#223
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Lies? Like what? That if this tax is passed, I'll start growing my own food and thus, save money?

Here's what I call a lie. I'm not arguing that you will not grow your own food. I'm arguing people growing their own food will not be a solution to the problem that a large tax on food will create.

	10-11-2004 00:40									#224
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT Excuse me, when I say before 1980, I mean between 1960 and 1980 (but inflation was present since the end of WWII). And I confirm that during this period inflation was running hight, even at two digits in the 1970s (remember the dollar no longer convertible in gold?). Of course the nominal interest rates never became negative, but even positive they did not offset the loss in capital incurred by the lenders (loss which was benefitting borrowers, mainly the middle class).

ok

	10-11-2004 00:42									#225
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Wouldn't it?

In order for the tax to have the effects you fear, it would have to impact the folks it was targeted at, yes?

And if those folks are growing their own food by and large, this means then, by extension, that they're not having to buy as much from the store....which in turn means that they're not as impacted by the tax as was initially forecast.

That's not too much of a leap, is it?

And certainly not a lie.

Or...maybe it is, in the Kidaverse? *shrug*

-=Vel=-

	10-11-2004 00:45									#226
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Wouldn't it? In order for the tax to have the effects you fear, it would have to impact the folks it was targeted at, yes? And if those folks are growing their own food by and large, this means then, by extension, that they're not having to buy as much from the store....which in turn means that they're not as impacted by the tax as was initially forecast. That's not too much of a leap, is it? And certainly not a lie. Or...maybe it is, in the Kidaverse? *shrug* -=Vel=-

I'm not going to argue about it. It doesn't matter how ridiculous I show your belief to be, you will still insist that I'm the one being ridiculous, and there were be at least 15 other morons to come in and say that since everyone claims it to be true that it must be. That's what I call a lie.

	10-11-2004 00:49									#227
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Well I would be very interested to hear how a tax on food would be grossly detrimental to me if I am growing 75% of my own.

Please, enlighten me on this point!

Sure, you can argue that they'll simply raise the tax even higher to offset the loss I am describing, and in that case, it would take additional measures on my part, but that's not where we are at present, and until we GET to that point, I see no particular value in plotting ways around phantom threats.

On the other hand, this tax thing has a fair-to-middling chance of actually passing, and as such, I'm planning ahead accordingly.

And my plan will work.

I'll tell you this too...it'll work a whole heck of a lot better than b*tching about how bad it sucks but not actually doing anything...

-=Vel=-

	10-11-2004 00:52									#228
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The number of people on 'Poly who want a flat tax shows how sick our country has become.

	10-11-2004 01:01									#229
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@Vel: Being attacked from the right by Kidicious should be a warning sign.

Perhaps you'd succeed in growing 75% of your own food, but if everybody tried and did that, it would spell death for industrialized capitalist economy. We'd lose specialization, greatest comparative advantage and all those things right-wingers like to harp on about.

	10-11-2004 01:04									#230
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Yes, which is precisely what would undo the tax, and then we could all get back to business as usual.

I'd call that a good day's work!

-=Vel=-

	10-11-2004 01:06									#231
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Now THOSE are some potent green beans!

-=Vel=-

	10-11-2004 01:07									#232
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It might not be, like, preferable not to implement the tax in the first place?

	10-11-2004 01:11									#233
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Ahhh yes. But there's the rub.

I didn't vote for the Fundiecrat in office now.

I didn't WANT this shoved down my throat, but it might get shoved there anyways.

If it does, I already know what I intend to do about it.



-=Vel=-

	10-11-2004 01:15									#234
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However....I should also point out that even though the solution is blindingly obvious, there are lots of people who, for their own inexplicable reasons, would much rather sit helplessly on the sidelines and bemoan the wretchedness of it all.

Thus, not "everyone" would immediately jump on the bandwagon, and the tax would have some of the desired impacts.

So...it could be some years before any additional changes are effected.

That's a whole lot of time I could be socking away the money saved on those interest-bearing investments which are lightly taxed!

-=Vel=-

	10-11-2004 01:16									#235
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx If it does, I already know what I intend to do about it.

And all will be well in Veliverse. As always.

	10-11-2004 01:18									#236
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Mmm...no. I would definitely not say things are always well in the Veliverse.

Sometimes, they're downright hard and scary (STILL recovering from a year-long bout with unemployment...THANKS BUSH!!!)

However, the difference is, I'm not inclined to sit and take in on the chin.

I intend to do something about it.

-=Vel=-

	10-11-2004 01:19									#237
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx That's a whole lot of time I could be socking away the money saved on those interest-bearing investments which are lightly taxed!

I guess banks don't fail in Veliverse either.

	10-11-2004 01:20									#238
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The way some posters in this thread moan and groan about how American upper class have it so darn hard is just hilarious and stupid at the same time.

	10-11-2004 01:21									#239
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Mmm...no. I would definitely not say things are always well in the Veliverse. Sometimes, they're downright hard and scary (STILL recovering from a year-long bout with unemployment...THANKS BUSH!!!) However, the difference is, I'm not inclined to sit and take in on the chin. I intend to do something about it. -=Vel=-

Ah, so it's Bushes fault that you have been unemployeed for a year, and you can't do anything about that, but if he passes this tax on food you will be just fine, and I guess anyone else who wants to be fine, will.

	10-11-2004 01:23									#240
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Hey now....don't you go on about the banks....which can't even EXIST in the Kidaverse (no interest = somewhat difficult to have banking)

-=Vel=-
(and yes...banks can and do fail. Worse, corporate leeches make huge messes like Enron and WorldCom....and when that happens, some people b*tch and moan, and others buck up and work it out. Which category do you suppose finds the greater success, in the end?)