09-11-2004 23:27									#181
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx But, IF it happens, I can see some upsides, too. Do not downplay the ingenuity of the American people. One thing it will do is that savings/investment rates will increase.

= less spending (demand)

quote: Lots more home gardens, lots of informal community associations and barter going on behind the scenes. If it passes, I know that’s what I’ll be doing. I got a big back yard. Could easily set up a mini-orchard and a garden big enough to provide most of the veggies I get at the local Kroger right now.

= more supply (do you know what less demand and more supply means?)

quote: End result will be that I’ll have more money in my pocket (federal tax bite goes away, and I get it back in my paycheck), healthier, home-grown foods, and I have more money to invest in dividend-paying financial instruments, which are taxed at a lower rate!

The tax will be lower, but the return will also be lower - less demand, and more supply.

	09-11-2004 23:28									#182
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quote: They just bought imports

That they did, and incase you didn't know that means less jobs for Americans... and that is not a good thing.

	09-11-2004 23:30									#183
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT The fight against inflation, started in the US in the 80s and extended successfully to the whole world, has resulted in building an economy devoted to paying interests to people doing nothing.

Interest IS a payment to people for doing nothing. It started well before the 80s.

	09-11-2004 23:32									#184
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quote: Originally posted by Japher That they did, and incase you didn't know that means less jobs for Americans... and that is not a good thing.

You seem to think that unless we produce goods for rich people we will be out of jobs. That's crap. There were more jobs in the 90s than the 80s.

	09-11-2004 23:33									#185
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So when a tax destroys and industry it is only important if it is an industry that caters to poor people?

	09-11-2004 23:35									#186
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious You seem to think that unless we produce goods for rich people we will be out of jobs. That's crap. There were more jobs in the 90s than the 80s.

More rich people too.

	09-11-2004 23:35									#187
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quote: Originally posted by Japher So when a tax destroys and industry it is only important if it is an industry that caters to poor people?

Yes

	09-11-2004 23:36									#188
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT More rich people too.

	09-11-2004 23:40									#190
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quote: Yes

Do you think that ship builders are in general poor people or rich people?

Ship building is a pretty unique trade, the workers who lost their jobs were in pretty deep sheit. All because of a tax.

So, why should I care if a tax cut or tax increase "appears" to effect the rich or the poor? Everyone suffers; the rich can't get their boat from within the country and some poor ship builder is laid off...

	09-11-2004 23:42									#191
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Do you think that ship builders are in general poor people or rich people? Ship building is a pretty unique trade, the workers who lost their jobs were in pretty deep sheit. All because of a tax. So, why should I care if a tax cut or tax increase "appears" to effect the rich or the poor? Everyone suffers; the rich can't get their boat from within the country and some poor ship builder is laid off...

The yacht builder was initially employeed inefficiently. More efficient employment and less goods for rich people is better. We can retrain the yacht builder and make things better.

	09-11-2004 23:46									#192
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You have no idea what efficiency means.

	09-11-2004 23:48									#193
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@ Kid.

And "Profit vs. Unfair Tax III" is born.

-Arrian

	09-11-2004 23:49									#194
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I see this thread sinking into Kid's imaginary world and the rest trying to bring him back to reality.....

	09-11-2004 23:49									#195
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quote: Originally posted by Japher You have no idea what efficiency means.

More yachts for rich people?

	09-11-2004 23:50									#196
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quote: More yachts for rich people?

More money FROM rich people

	09-11-2004 23:50									#197
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Yep...I am well aware that should this tax system actually pass, it will suppress demand, and prolly throw all their calculations horribly out of whack.

And that's a good thing.

I'm also well aware that this proposed system is going to HUGELY expand the "informal" economy as people barter back and forth to escape from tax purgatory.

And I'll be among the early adopters!

-=Vel=-
(and I missed you too, Kid! )

	09-11-2004 23:50									#198
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian @ Kid. And "Profit vs. Unfair Tax III" is born. -Arrian

My days of arguing with multitudes of idiots on end are over.

	09-11-2004 23:51									#199
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Oh god.....

	09-11-2004 23:51									#200
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quote: Originally posted by Japher More money FROM rich people

? Strange definition.

	09-11-2004 23:52									#201
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx And I'll be among the early adopters!

First one in the soup kitchen line.

	09-11-2004 23:57									#202
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Nahhh, first one on my block to become a net producer tho...'sides, gardening is good for you...

(and, it'll be one of the reasons I'm NOT having to get in any soup line, thankyouverymuch!)

-=Vel=-

	09-11-2004 23:58									#203
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Nahhh, first one on my block to become a net producer tho...'sides, gardening is good for you... (and, it'll be one of the reasons I'm NOT having to get in any soup line, thankyouverymuch!) -=Vel=-

Not when the cost of transportation exceeds the price of your produce.

	10-11-2004 00:00									#204
	Got spare money?

You miss the point, Kid....if I'm growing it for my own consumption, then there IS no cost of transport...

-=Vel=-

	10-11-2004 00:02									#205
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isn't that what the Consumption Tax is for

	10-11-2004 00:03									#206
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quote: Originally posted by Japher isn't that what the Consumption Tax is for

Let me tell you how it will be
There's one for you, nineteen for me
'Cause I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman

Should five per cent appear too small
Be thankful I don't take it all
'Cause I'm the taxman, yeah I'm the taxman

If you drive a car, I'll tax the street,
If you try to sit, I'll tax your seat.
If you get too cold I'll tax the heat,
If you take a walk, I'll tax your feet.

Don't ask me what I want it for
If you don't want to pay some more
'Cause I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman

Now my advice for those who die
Declare the pennies on your eyes
'Cause I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman
And you're working for no one but me.

	10-11-2004 00:04									#207
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx You miss the point, Kid....if I'm growing it for my own consumption, then there IS no cost of transport... -=Vel=-

So food will be so expensive that you have to grow it yourself to maintain your survival. You should create the political commercials for this tax.

	10-11-2004 00:05									#208
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Probably.

And I suppose next I'll be reminded that a "net producer" produces more than he winds up consuming, so I'll have to transport that....

....all the way to the end of my driveway, to swap a few 'taters with my neighbor so we can both avoid going to the store....

-=Vel=-

	10-11-2004 00:07									#209
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Probably. And I suppose next I'll be reminded that a "net producer" produces more than he winds up consuming, so I'll have to transport that.... ....all the way to the end of my driveway, to swap a few 'taters with my neighbor so we can both avoid going to the store.... -=Vel=-

Nice little imaginary universe you live in Vel. As always.

	10-11-2004 00:08									#210
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*sigh* Ahhhh yes...THIS is what I missed!

No...I never said that food would be so expensive blah blah blah. YOU said that and then cleverly inserted it into my mouth.

What I said was that people will look for ways of cutting corners.

I have a big back yard. Why pay an over-inflated amount for green beans, when I can grow my own? Hardly a revolutionary idea, and I'd expect to see a lot more of it if this tax goes through.

Thus, I get money back in two ways. First, because I'm not being taxed automatically like I am now (see the "Federal Witholding" line of your last paystub), and second, I'm growing many of my own foodstores, and not having to pay artifically jacked-up prices on them.

These monies, I shall invest in nice, low-tax-bearing, interest vehicles....

-=Vel=-