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Dr Strangelove
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Bank accounts and credit cards are all it takes. Inflict both upon the third world and you will see a rapid implosion of the world's population.
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Ned
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of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:19
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackCat
Often in american movies there are scenes from a courtroom where a witness are asked a question, and are only allowed to answer yes or no despite the fact that both of these answers will be a lie. I don't know if that has anything to do with real world, but your question is in the same class.
Shurely, f.ex. denmark could take a coulple or three more million citizens, but that is not the question. Other countries could do the same, but at what price ? And would it solve the problem ? High, and no. |
You and I understand each other. While Denmark is not facing any crisis or difficulty whatsoever due to population, you still are willing to not have kids and advocate stable population for Denmark, and everywhere else for that matter, based upon some theory that since the planet cannot support an infinite number of human beings we have to start controlling population now.
You could also look at things in a slightly different manner. You could rate countries by net productivity. Countries with high productivity actually benefit mankind. Countries with low productivity actually harm mankind. If this is the case, restraining growth in countries having a net benefit to mankind is harmful, not helpful.
If you accept such logic, I would submit that Denmark just might be one of those countries that on balance is beneficial to mankind and should grow until it such time that its inputs and outputs match.
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Heresson
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of frogs
Jun 2000
time: 06:19
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quote:
So, in a way, Christianity helped bring about the collapse of the Roman Empire because its own citizens refused to join the Army. |
I certainly doubt it was a massive trend. There were more Christians in army than You may assume - even Julian the Apostate, who officially expelled them from it, had to allow some of them, like the next emperors - Iovian and Valentinus.
Also, remember that since Constantine, the fight was also in the name of cross.
And that the Rome has not fallen.
The eastern part became occupied by barbarians, right, but it is due to that the west did everything it could to fall - I'm talking about Stilichon's case.
If the Christianity was to cause the fall of the Empire, the eastern, more Christianised, part should've done that. Instead, it existed for next 1000 years,
though last 200 were not very glorious.
---
back on topic, it seams these third world Christians are not quite Christian sometimes indeed.
I've heard about cargo cults in Papua.
Amazing.
It's like that they see that the missionary receives cargos from ships by writing something on a piece of paper, so they all want to write thinking that they will get it as well when they'll be writing - and there's no means of telling them that it's not that way. If You try, they think You're cheating on them...
Or they splash the sand in the sea, so that the ship would get stuck while going near their island and they could have all the cargo...
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BlackCat
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Technology crushed Malthus, and it will also crush the neo Malthusians.
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Since i'm not a neo Malthusian i take this threat easy  I agree that there are a wery long road to the point where this planet cannot sustain the population, especially if "terraforming" globally reaches what it is in f.ex. Denmark. Out of 44.000 square km not more than a couple of hundred sqkm can be said to be real wild nature with that diversity this gives - funny enough, those areas are typically military training areas, seems like nature don't mind to be shelled from time to time . This is my main reason to belive that it's a good idea if population drops.
quote:
Do you think, given a stable colony another planet, that transport technology will not also improve to increase our lift capacity to make such transports economical?
I agree, with the current model, that space travel is prohibitively costly, but there is no reason why our current model should remain.
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I would prefer that we delay any pop boom to such a technology is available - it might be invented but noone knows when - it would be a little foolishly to invent such a thing a decade after the planet broke down due to human pressure.
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What do you think it was like during the Age of Discovery? We have lost that sense of travel, and adventure. There will be people signing up just for the chance to do this.
And what happened once Columbus successfully returned? Look at the New World. Why couldn't we do the same again in space?
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I would be first in line myself to sign up, but at the moment i fails heavily on the age criteria.
It looks nice when you compare space with the New World, but i think a more correct comparison would be that Columbus had "discovered" antarctica instead of america.
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Yes, but they dreamed. What dreams do we have today?
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I think there are lots of dreams - i have my own - but you cannot any longer build your own ship and just sail out to see what is out there.
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Malthus said the same as you. Yet, who was right, the folks who looked at all this newfangled agricultural tools, or Malthus? |
The problem with that is that there are no newfangled tools to go to space.
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BlackCat
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
BC:
It can also be shown historically that population density drastically increases productivity.
So why are you afraid of putting more people in Denmark? |
You are rigth if it is possible to break new farmland or has industry with heavy labor demands, but since it isn't possible to squeeze yet another farm into denmark and since we are dismantling industry with heavy labor demands, no general popgrowth will increase productivity.
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Ned
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of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
I certainly doubt it was a massive trend. There were more Christians in army than You may assume - even Julian the Apostate, who officially expelled them from it, had to allow some of them, like the next emperors - Iovian and Valentinus.
Also, remember that since Constantine, the fight was also in the name of cross.
And that the Rome has not fallen.
The eastern part became occupied by barbarians, right, but it is due to that the west did everything it could to fall - I'm talking about Stilichon's case.
If the Christianity was to cause the fall of the Empire, the eastern, more Christianised, part should've done that. Instead, it existed for next 1000 years,
though last 200 were not very glorious.
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The cause? Not necessarily. Contributing, yes, for I think, as does Gibbon, that the pacifism of the Church at that time helped contribute to the Western Romans not joining the Army. In former times, being in the Army was THE thing to do for a Roman. At the end, no Western Roman wanted to be in the Army. Christianity was partly the cause for this.
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CharlesBHoff
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el paso texas
May 2002
time: 05:19
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When the State set Population Polcy that when thing go wrong. When China started the one child polcy for each familty they expect the sexes to be near equal in number. They are finding there are alot more male boy being born. In China culture the male child have the duty to care for his eldest parents. So familty when they find out the unborn child will be than female they abort the unborn baby.
The Roman Empire went from 100,000,000 to 50,000,000 people near the end. 10,000,000 in the western part and 40,000,000 in the Eastern part.
It very hard to stop population increase as it also very hard to stop population decline.
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BlackCat
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Okay, this to me seems a more reasonable preposition. However, you do know that with the AIDS epidemic raging through large swaths of Africa and Asia, that the population of the world is predicted to start declining within 50 years.
That's why I think it's shortsighted for countries with declining populations to encourage their further decline. |
I am very carefull about using BS, but i think it's nessecary here. What is the connection between european population decilne and Afircan/Asiatic population decline ? Do you think that those superflous in Europe shall emigrate to the less populated areas of Africa/Asia ?
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BlackCat
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Nope, many have claimed that europe can't survive without immigration, but that's not true. We are still above "natural unemployment" .
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BlackCat
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Very true.quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Very true.
The third world needs to increase their population density. It is only by getting most of their population living in towns, and an overall jump in population, will they be able to industrialise.
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they might have to concentrate in urban areas, but they certainly don't need any growth - on the contrary. Such an urbanisation should at least result in a dramatically lower population growth.
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The West is not helping them by encouraging them to constrain their growth, rather they ensure that their growth will never supercede the West.
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BS. Not a nice word, but it is needed. Growth isn't any longer a question of heads but more about skills.
quote:
That's why I'm laughing at China. They have cut their population in half through their one child policy. Sure, they reap the benefits now, but when they start to implode, they will regret this.
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It might sound crazy that a hard core someway to the right as i am, but i think that Mao etc. did the rigth thing when they started the "one child" policy. If not, i think WW3 would be a real threat.
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quote:
Probably the biggest source of the prosperity of Europe is their population density, and dramatic growth alongside the Industrial Revolution. The two fuelled each other. |
No, the real wealth lies in the education of people, not in the numbers. You may be rigth in the early 2000 but not later.
Edit : windows did "funny" things.
Last edited by BlackCat on 26-11-2004 at 05:42
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:19
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quote:
they might have to concentrate in urban areas, but they certainly don't need any growth - on the contrary. Such an urbanisation should at least result in a dramatically lower population growth.
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Why? That's not what happened in Europe. What did happen is that as they urbanised, population shot up.
quote:
Not a nice word, but it is needed. Growth isn't any longer a question of heads but more about skills.
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Oh, it isn't a nice word. But it is true. The folks in Europe do not want the Third world to grow and develop, and to rival them in prosperity. They would much rather that they do not industrialise, and let their population decline, so that they cannot support and advanced economy.
This is why you have all the population control regimes supported by the UN, and financed by European governments that are afraid of losing influence.
And I include Canada among this, as they are supporters of the UN policies.
quote:
It might sound crazy that a hard core someway to the right as i am, but i think that Mao etc. did the rigth thing when they started the "one child" policy. If not, i think WW3 would be a real threat.
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And this is why you do the above, and why you want to keep the other countries weak, so that they do not challenge the west.
The greatest thing that Mao did for China, is to give them 50 years to make their mark, after which, everything will collapse, as it has in Russia.
As it is, you have all those dry branches, young men of our age, without wives, and without much of a future, who are in the military. Mao's policy is part of the incendiary building up in China.
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BlackCat
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Very true.
The third world needs to increase their population density. It is only by getting most of their population living in towns, and an overall jump in population, will they be able to industrialise.
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they might have to concentrate in urban areas, but they certainly don't need any growth - on the contrary. Such an urbanisation should at least result in a dramatically lower population growth.
quote:
The West is not helping them by encouraging them to constrain their growth, rather they ensure that their growth will never supercede the West.
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BS. Not a nice word, but it is needed. Growth isn't any longer a question of heads but more about skills.
quote:
That's why I'm laughing at China. They have cut their population in half through their one child policy. Sure, they reap the benefits now, but when they start to implode, they will regret this.
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It might sound crazy that a hard core someway to the right as i am, but i think that Mao etc. did the rigth thing when they started the "one child" policy. If not, i think WW3 would be a real threat.
quote:
Probably the biggest source of the prosperity of Europe is their population density, and dramatic growth alongside the Industrial Revolution. The two fuelled each other.
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No, the real wealth lies in the education of people, not in the numbers. You may be rigth in the early 2000 but not later.
quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Very true.
The third world needs to increase their population density. It is only by getting most of their population living in towns, and an overall jump in population, will they be able to industrialise.
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they might have to concentrate in urban areas, but they certainly don't need any growth - on the contrary. Such an urbanisation should at least result in a dramatically lower population growth.
quote:
The West is not helping them by encouraging them to constrain their growth, rather they ensure that their growth will never supercede the West.
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BS. Not a nice word, but it is needed. Growth isn't any longer a question of heads but more about skills.
quote:
That's why I'm laughing at China. They have cut their population in half through their one child policy. Sure, they reap the benefits now, but when they start to implode, they will regret this.
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It might sound crazy that a hard core someway to the right as i am, but i think that Mao etc. did the rigth thing when they started the "one child" policy. If not, i think WW3 would be a real threat.
quote:
Probably the biggest source of the prosperity of Europe is their population density, and dramatic growth alongside the Industrial Revolution. The two fuelled each other.
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No, the real wealth lies in the education of people, not in the numbers. You may be rigth in the early 2000 but not later.
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CharlesBHoff
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el paso texas
May 2002
time: 05:19
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The China population polcy of one child start after Mao die, in the middle 1980's the polcy start.
The Population of nonmuslim Europe in the 9th century about 5,000,000 people in the entire Frankish Empire at 800 CE. While muslim Spain have than population of 4,000,000 to 5,000,000 muslim have very good farming skilled so they can grow alots of food in the least amount of land.
The Entire Frankish Empire cover France,Beligon, Holland, Denmark, Swizzland,Germany, than good part of Eastern Europe(Slav People where the word Slave came come) the Frank sold slave to the muslim in Spain.
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BlackCat
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Herreson : You are right about "denmark" if you take the geographical area - the state didn't exist before approx 935. Still, the area though wasn't a part of the frankish empire - on the contrary - vikings from the area did a good push to its fall through their raids.
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BlackCat
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Why? That's not what happened in Europe. What did happen is that as they urbanised, population shot up.
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Coz they don't have to do the long stretch to get to a state where many children are unwanted as it happend when the west got industrialized.
quote:
Oh, it isn't a nice word. But it is true. The folks in Europe do not want the Third world to grow and develop, and to rival them in prosperity. They would much rather that they do not industrialise, and let their population decline, so that they cannot support and advanced economy.
This is why you have all the population control regimes supported by the UN, and financed by European governments that are afraid of losing influence.
And I include Canada among this, as they are supporters of the UN policies.
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Surely, some people has that opinion, but they are few - funny enough - many of those are to the left. If you look at the industry, they certainly are doing a hard work to industrialize the third world. Just take the danish textile industry (small in the big world but still several thousand jobs). After the fall of the wall they have moved their production several times - first to the baltic later ukraine and now they are moving further east. Everytime it's done because the current country has developed with raising salaries as result.
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And this is why you do the above, and why you want to keep the other countries weak, so that they do not challenge the west.
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I thought that this viewpoint was long ago declared null and void. No sensible owner of a production wants poor people - they want rich people that can buy their products. What they are most afraid of is countires where things can be produced at a lower cost.
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The greatest thing that Mao did for China, is to give them 50 years to make their mark, after which, everything will collapse, as it has in Russia.
As it is, you have all those dry branches, young men of our age, without wives, and without much of a future, who are in the military. Mao's policy is part of the incendiary building up in China. |
And what about a scenario where the chinese population had grown to lets say 1.8 Bill ? No work, not enough farmland - what would they then do ?
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CharlesBHoff
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el paso texas
May 2002
time: 05:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
Denmark I think it didn't contain. Germany - only western part of modern Germany. Slavs - nope, it was Charlemagne allied with Odobrzyce tribe and defeated Wieleci, but none of them were part of Frankish empire.
It contained at least for some time parts of modern-day Austria and Hungary, though.
I think your numbers are aren't quite true, and it is not very much probable that Muslims were a majority in Spain at this time as well.
The roots of slave word can be questioned. |
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I didnot say Spain have 5,000,000 muslim. Muslim Spain have 5,000,000 people. Since Muslim rule Spain at that time and to avoid confusion with modern Spain scholar use the word Muslim Spain. The Frank did conqust Denmark and forcely by sword force the pagon to convert to Christian. The word for Slave have it root from Slavs as so many where enslave by the frank only about the 1/3 where sold to the muslim as personal slaves and many where able to gain they freedom from the muslim.
The Frank Empire have a Danish March which is basely ocupty land.
Last edited by CharlesBHoff on 27-11-2004 at 13:22
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24-11-2004 08:17
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