20-11-2004 21:15									#151
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson Oh, forgot to reply to that; Religion isn't an invention of the power over people. Christianity was the masses' invention. Religion CAN BE USED as a tool to keep the masses in line, but IS NOT a tool t.k.t.m.i.l.

It usually is used that way.

	21-11-2004 04:05									#152
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi That's even worse. Restricting immigration without removing these other impediments, will just mean that the Danish population declines.

Hopefully, since i belive that we are too many people on this planet. I wouldn't mind if the danish population stablized at approx 2-3 mill (current 5 mill). Rest of the world should do the same.

quote: Originally posted by Heresson Because they have no necessary skills, while Europeans won't accept jobs that there's lack of work in.

You are right about the skills, and then i ask, why accept further immigration of people without skills ? Can't quite figure out what you mean with the last sentence.

quote: Originally posted by Heresson But in the past, they did

Yes, but does that make it a right descission which cannot be undone ?

quote: Originally posted by Heresson Simply. If there was a monoparty system, for example, and You introduced political freedom, the monoparty will always lose at least some support

Got it, and disagree. It's centuries ago since we had the situation where religion was the dictator of society. Exotic religions has existed for a long period and it's those who get the growth.

quote: Originally posted by Heresson Oh, forgot to reply to that; Religion isn't an invention of the power over people. Christianity was the masses' invention. Religion CAN BE USED as a tool to keep the masses in line, but IS NOT a tool t.k.t.m.i.l.

You are rigth about the point that religion isn't invented to control people - i don't expect our old ancestors to have invented thundergods, treegods, watergods etc. to control others - it was a tool to explain the unexplainable. As time went on and people learned more, most of those gods was dropped and that process is still working.

Christianity wasn't a mass invention, it was just a movement that got politicans attention in rome and was used as a tool for power.

Religion can certainly be used as a tool for controlling people, has been used massively as that earlier - both before and after christianity, and is still threatening to do so in present. Just to make it clear, i mean any kind of religion, not only christianity.

	21-11-2004 04:11									#153
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat Hopefully, since i belive that we are too many people on this planet. I wouldn't mind if the danish population stablized at approx 2-3 mill (current 5 mill). Rest of the world should do the same.

Lead by example.

	21-11-2004 04:19									#154
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Lead by example.

I do, i don't have any children of my own (as far as i know )

I don't expect this to be a simple matter, it will take generations, but if it wasn't for immigration in the last 20-30 years, we would already be down by 4-5 %

	21-11-2004 19:33									#155
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quote: Same can be said for any society with its particular defining ideology. Read Toynbee or Braudel.

What's your point?

	21-11-2004 22:41									#156
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat Hopefully, since i belive that we are too many people on this planet. I wouldn't mind if the danish population stablized at approx 2-3 mill (current 5 mill). Rest of the world should do the same.

Yeah...

quote: You are right about the skills, and then i ask, why accept further immigration of people without skills ? Can't quite figure out what you mean with the last sentence.

I mean that there are places of work, but British f.e. won't take them, because they want better and better paid jobs

quote: Yes, but does that make it a right descission which cannot be undone ?

Don't know

quote: Got it, and disagree. It's centuries ago since we had the situation where religion was the dictator of society. Exotic religions has existed for a long period and it's those who get the growth.

The point is that when You have 100%, You can not grow higher, You can just fall.

quote: Christianity wasn't a mass invention, it was just a movement that got politicans attention in rome and was used as a tool for power.

But there was 300 years before it happened

	22-11-2004 00:06									#157
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Same can be said for any society with its particular defining ideology. Read Toynbee or Braudel. What's your point?

Would you have preferred that the societies of, say, the Sumerian gods or of the Romans never died out, but were still chugging along today?

Societies dying lead to societies being born. If Western society is "dying" as you seem to think (Seems to me it's stronger than any other society out there today), then it is to clear the way for the next one.

	22-11-2004 00:32									#158
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Societies dying lead to societies being born. If Western society is "dying" as you seem to think (Seems to me it's stronger than any other society out there today), then it is to clear the way for the next one.

But the replacement societies might not be better. It took Western Europe more than a thousand years to recover from the invasions of the German barbarians.

	22-11-2004 00:37									#159
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara But the replacement societies might not be better. It took Western Europe more than a thousand years to recover from the invasions of the German barbarians.

You have to look at things in the long term, however. When societies have fallen, there have always been a period of "volkwanderung," but the replacements that come tend to be more advanced, better cultures.

Besides, many historians would argue that the fall of Rome was not at all a bad thing for the west. The societies which emerged had their faults, but in many ways were superior to Rome. Read Norman Cantor's The Civilization of the Middle Ages. He points out that, overall, the standard of living in medieval Europe was slightly better than that of Rome, for the masses of peasants.

	22-11-2004 00:51									#160
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov You have to look at things in the long term, however. When societies have fallen, there have always been a period of "volkwanderung," but the replacements that come tend to be more advanced, better cultures.

A thousand years is a far longer term than I'd care to consider. Even if we only stick to the dark ages, we're still talking about five hundred years or more. That's ten percent of the period of written history.

	22-11-2004 00:52									#161
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I think it was better for the peasants because they were not bound to the land (were they?), but the general level of science, of agriculture etc dropped.
Almost entire Gaul was farmland in Roman times, almost as it is today. In MA, it was largely covered with forests.
The number of population reduced too.

	22-11-2004 00:55									#162
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara A thousand years is a far longer term than I'd care to consider. Even if we only stick to the dark ages, we're still talking about five hundred years or more. That's ten percent of the period of written history.

Again, you're overstating how bad it was for people. I'd urge you to read Cantor's work. For most people, life post-Roman fall was at a higher standard than pre-Roman fall.

	22-11-2004 09:56									#163
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quote: But the replacement societies might not be better.

Exactly. I don't see how an Islamic Europe, for example, would be better than the Western society we have today. We're probably going to find out what it'll be like, though. Demographics are destiny...

	22-11-2004 09:59									#164
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Again, you're overstating how bad it was for people. I'd urge you to read Cantor's work. For most people, life post-Roman fall was at a higher standard than pre-Roman fall.

Assuming Cantor is correct. Heck, there weren't even peasants in the Roman Empire 'till it was declining. I doubt one should compare the end of the Empire with the flowering of the Middle Ages.

Interesting sidebar. It was with the triumph of Christianity that Rome collapsed. Now that Christianity is triumphing in America, we too seem to be on the verge of collapse.

	22-11-2004 10:13									#165
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara A thousand years is a far longer term than I'd care to consider. Even if we only stick to the dark ages, we're still talking about five hundred years or more. That's ten percent of the period of written history.

Yes, but it's better than the 30,000 we'd have without the cult of Seldon.[/geek]

	22-11-2004 10:29									#168
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quote: Hopefully, since i belive that we are too many people on this planet. I wouldn't mind if the danish population stablized at approx 2-3 mill (current 5 mill). Rest of the world should do the same.

Then the Danes will not have a country to come home to, if that is their attitude. Just because this is what you want to see doesn't mean that all the groups that are in Denmark will also want this.

	22-11-2004 15:26									#169
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One of the factor in the fall of the western roman empire was way below replacement birth rate which lead to than manpower shortage which lead to not haveing than enought people to grow foods and grather the foods that lead to than lower birthrate. Once this cycles start it very very hard to stop.

	22-11-2004 15:49									#170
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What the realtively wealthy, Marxist Europeans will never fully grasp is that Christianity fundamentally appeals to poor. Christ may have been the first one to preach that all men were created equal, that all will be equal in the hearafter, and that the meek shall inherit the Earth. Christianity teaches one to love one's neighbor and breeds a climate of fundamental respect for human worth.

This development in Africa holds great promise for the advancement of that continent towards modern civilization, as any civil society must be composed of citizens that have fundamental respect for each other.

	22-11-2004 20:36									#171
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Christianity teaches one to love one's neighbor and breeds a climate of fundamental respect for human worth.

How many Christians do you know? I know plenty, and they are among the meanist, nastiest, most hate-filled people I've ever met.

	22-11-2004 20:44									#172
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Which means they do not understand their religion

	22-11-2004 21:30									#173
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quote: How many Christians do you know? I know plenty, and they are among the meanist, nastiest, most hate-filled people I've ever met.

That hasn't been my experience. I guess you should've stayed in Nebraska...

	22-11-2004 21:46									#174
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson Which means they do not understand their religion

Hence the prayer, "Jesus, save me from your followers."

I don't think any Christians understand their religion, since Jesus was trying to show people how to be better Jews, not create a whole new religion. Boy did you people ever get it wrong.

	22-11-2004 21:47									#175
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: How many Christians do you know? I know plenty, and they are among the meanist, nastiest, most hate-filled people I've ever met. That hasn't been my experience. I guess you should've stayed in Nebraska...

Nebraska is different. People are just nicer there in all catagories.

	22-11-2004 23:14									#176
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Assuming Cantor is correct. Heck, there weren't even peasants in the Roman Empire 'till it was declining. I doubt one should compare the end of the Empire with the flowering of the Middle Ages. It was with the triumph of Christianity that Rome collapsed.

Hmm- then who were those peasants who farmed the land in Augustan times? When repeated epidemics started striking the Mediterranean Roman Empire (from the time of the Antonine Emperors onward) barbarian invaders could be settled on vacant land with ease, as could retired legionaries, because the population in rural areas had also suffered (although not apparently as greatly as the cities of Rome, or Antioch, or Alexandria).


Also, the appeal of Christianity during a time of severe population die-off and suffering was that it gave more 'hope' than pagan Stoicism, because it offered the promise of an afterlife, and attempted to place the suffering in that philosophical/theological framework- much as Buddhism did for the masses in the burgeoning Chinese Empire.

	23-11-2004 00:09									#177
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara How many Christians do you know? I know plenty, and they are among the meanist, nastiest, most hate-filled people I've ever met.

No doubt you identified yourself has a religion-hating bigot first.

	23-11-2004 00:16									#178
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi And if you succeed, what then?

:shrug: I've always felt that human population on this planet ought be not any higher than 5 million in order to allow the ecology to truly fournish the way it was supposed to and restore the homostatis.

	23-11-2004 00:16									#179
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DP

	23-11-2004 00:22									#180
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Ben, I'm a little confused. Are you of the opinion that the planet can sustain an infinite number of people?