17-11-2004 13:25									#181
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AH tried to conquer the world with his master. Didn't you know that?

	17-11-2004 13:28									#182
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I didn't think he was referring to CivII.

	17-11-2004 13:32									#183
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin There are certainly a lot of hypocrats running around.

I know only of the Hippocratic oath....

	17-11-2004 14:29									#184
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Just saw more of the tape as they were entering the building and these guys knew these Iraqis were wounded and left by another unit for pick up. It doesn't look good because that changes the status of the Iraqis from battlefield wounded to captured prisoners, albeit too wounded to need guards 24/7. But it also appears to be a legitimate mistake brought on by the circumstances. Also, the soldier who fired said the Iraqi was faking death and another soldier confirmed that he was breathing re-inforcing the shooter's perception of a threat. But I have to ask, these guys were just told there were Iraqi wounded in the building awaiting pick up. WTF! How could they see a wounded and breathing Iraqi and believe that was out of the ordinary? The Iraqis were left there by a unit that treated their wounds, of course wounded (and breathing) Iraqis were there! Oh well, put me in that situation and I would see Saddam clones coming at me from every direction, I'd be blasting away too.

They really knew about the wounded?
Yesterday it still sounded like despite the first team tending for them and plannuing for their transport behind friendly lines the second team wasn´t informed about them.

If this is true it will be even worse PR for the US and their Troops than it is already.
According to MSNBC this insurgent wasn´t the only one shot again.
Obviously three other of the five wounded insurgents were also shot at by the second team (but probably not filmed), which, if true, means that only one of the wounded was left unharmed by these marines.
See here:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6502452/

	17-11-2004 15:00									#185
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion Oerdin you've been to Iraq and I highly value your opinion on this matter so I'll ask you too. If we presume these things happen much more often -- which I believe is very likely -- at which point, at what number of similar incidents should a higher functionary be tried?

I can't really say how many other situations like this have happened because I don't know. I do know the Army spends endless hours drilling soldiers on the laws of war and the rules of engaugement. Granted this man is a Marine and not a soldier but I doubt the training is all that different. He knew what the rules were and it looks like he flagrantly broke them. If he did then he deserves to go to jail.

Usually a high ranking officer can be tried if 1) he doesn't provide the necissary training and so didn't properly guide the soldiers under his command 2) if a superior officer or NCO witnesses a war crime but doesn't take the necissary action to prevent or at least try to prevent it 3) If any soldier knows of war crimes but does not report it to the proper authorities.

Failing to do any of the above is grounds for a court marshel under the uniformed code of military justice (UCMJ).

	17-11-2004 15:45									#186
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If this Marine did what he was trained to do, kill enemy faking death, but is still tried and convicted of a war crime, then we have a problem. In the future, other Marines and soldiers will not shoot. This can only lead to many unnecessary deaths among our own troops who will be shot and killed by such fakers who unexpectedly rise up to shoot.

Somehow I really doubt this Marine will be charged. But, if he is, it has to be on some basis that it was manifestly clear that this enemy had either surrendered or was of no possible threat.

	17-11-2004 16:08									#187
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quote: Originally posted by Ned If this Marine did what he was trained to do, kill enemy faking death, but is still tried and convicted of a war crime, then we have a problem. In the future, other Marines and soldiers will not shoot. This can only lead to many unnecessary deaths among our own troops who will be shot and killed by such fakers who unexpectedly rise up to shoot.

But the total number of unwanted deaths (Americans + civilians) will probably be lower, which will help you accomplish the strategic goal - "Iraqi Freedom(TM)"

	17-11-2004 17:20									#188
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I think that its possible that the marines were not expecting to find any live Iraqis at that site. That would account for the comments "this ones still alive" before the shooting. It seems to me that they had been cleaning up bodies for at least a few days and had recently had a similar situation that had gone bad. Under those circumstances it would be justifiable to shoot someone who's faking "being dead". I still havent seen the video though.

	17-11-2004 20:28									#189
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin You most certainly can crush insurgencies with brut force. Just look how Saddam crushed the insurgency against him in 1991 or how Asad crushed the insurgency in 1982. We just don't have the balls to do what is necissary as it would entail mass killings and group punishment.

Hence the mentions of Spanish and British strategies and Turkish actions.

quote: We did it in the Philppine Insurection but I don't see any western power doing it again in modern times. That's probably good in the long run but it means we won't have the will to win in Iraq.

This was the same time for the British strategies in South Africa.

I agree the US won;t do it- but then, we have constraints that did NOT exist back in 1900- like a mass media that can show images of repression worldwide- and the very rationale of our invasion of Iraq is premised on the notion that we won't act like Saddam- for us to act like Saddam undermines the very rationale for our invasion.

	17-11-2004 21:55									#190
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quote: Originally posted by Sinapus Ah, that's your problem: you're treating it as a law enforcement problem and not war. No wonder you're confused. Sorry, but killing someone who appears to be faking death on a battlefield where similar behavior has been used to kill your comrades sounds rather prudent. Again, judging from the camera view I'm wondering how you can apply the word "clearly" to it. You can barely see the guy in the background. Since I wasn't in that room, I don't see how I can "clearly" presume wrongdoing. That, apparently, won't stop you, but I can't do much about your prejudices. Who knows? Maybe next time it'll be actual POWs being forced to dig their own graves and getting shot in them. Then I'd definitely call that illegal, and I'm sure you'll be all giddy about the whole thing.

I'm sure if footage of marines being forced to dig their own graves before being shot, you'll be the only one getting off to it. Hey, whaddya know? It IS fun to put words into peoples' mouths

	17-11-2004 22:54									#191
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quote: Originally posted by VJ Yes. I guess you're not too aware with the western values yet, kid.

Unfortunately, then, the courts around here don't seem to care much for Western values. They routinely jail people for murder.

	17-11-2004 23:08									#192
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quote: Originally posted by Gibsie I'm sure if footage of marines being forced to dig their own graves before being shot, you'll be the only one getting off to it. Hey, whaddya know? It IS fun to put words into peoples' mouths

It also appears to be fun to seize upon one remark to avoid the main point: how you can "clearly" see anything.
But you're right, I should damn you with what you actually say and not what I believe you think based on it.

Let's review in case people were wondering why I have some doubts of how "clear" this all is.

At Reuters there is some raw footage. Get to the part right before the shooting, pause and take a look. (Requires IE6 and latest Win Media Player and has no rewind or search function, which is annoying.)

In the foreground, there is some old man, might be alive, might not, (but where's his right arm exactly? Not that it matters since the video didn't end at that point or show to the camera being thrown by a great force so I'm guessing he didn't have a bomb on him.)

Waaaaay in the background are two human forms. The one closest to the camera looks like a body under a blanket. Behind that, barely visible is another body. That's the one that is shot. You can't see much of that body except for part of the legs and maybe part of the head. Perhaps this is a different definition of clear which means "I can't see much" or something.

Yet it is presumed the Marine was evil to shoot the poor hapless member of a group that routinely uses false surrenders and other tricks (like, oh, faking death or wounding) to kill their enemies. Riiight. It's not as if you can't see it from where the Marine was standing since he was right next to the camera... oh wait, he wasn't. He was way on the other side of the room when it happened, and just might have seen something not obvious from the camera's point of view. Darn. Guess they need to put cameras on helmets like that Aliens movie.

Not that any of that matters since it's Clear to some truly Illuminated folk What Really Happened.

Mr. Horse:
That's nice to hear you have no problem with it. Alas, the sanctimonious prattle I was referring to was that part you wrote about how people who support wars "have very unrealistic ideas about the reality of the battlefield" and (my favorite) "if people knew what war is really like there wouldn't be any wars". That is rather unlikely, but I guess it's nice to have dreams. HTH, HAND.

	18-11-2004 00:00									#193
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie So, did you set up refugee camps to house the civilians while you bombed their homes? Or did you expect them to take care of themselves, walking in the desert, eating scorpions and drinking river water? Why would anyone leave his home if he has nowhere to go?

I honestly don't know.

	18-11-2004 01:01									#194
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Not that this should come as a surprise to anyone...

quote: By SAM F. GHATTAS, Associated Press Writer BEIRUT, Lebanon - The chilling video of a U.S. Marine shooting and killing a wounded and apparently unarmed man in Iraq (news - web sites) dominated the Arab world's media Wednesday, overshadowing the slaying of a British aid worker who had been kidnapped by Iraqi insurgents. The Marine shooting in a mosque in Fallujah was played and replayed, debated and portrayed as "evidence" of what many Arabs believe: that the United States is destroying Iraq and Iraqis. Frames of the Fallujah shooting appeared on many newspaper front pages Wednesday and Arab satellite stations repeatedly aired the footage taken by an American television crew. Al-Jazeera was among the stations airing the Marine shooting. The station said Tuesday it also had received a videotape showing a blindfolded woman believed to be Margaret Hassan being shot in the head at close range, but had chosen not to broadcast it. "We don't show acts of killing," Jihad Ballout, Al-Jazeera spokesman, said of the decision not to show the slaying of the longtime director of CARE in Iraq. "We've never done it before, outside war." Adnan Abdul-Rahman, a 34-year-old Syrian government employee, was one of those loosely linking the two killings and placing blame for both at the feet of the United States. He said Hassan's death was "a normal response to the crimes which the Americans are committing in Iraq." "Violence breeds violence," he said. The U.S. military said Tuesday it was investigating the shooting in the mosque to determine whether the Marine acted in self-defense. Some Arabs portrayed the shooting by the Marine as a war crime committed by trigger-happy Americans, and the video as revealing the true face of the U.S. invasion. Others saw it as another debacle in the Iraq war that hurts America's image and efforts to restore stability in Iraq. One Lebanese newspaper, As-Safir, called the shooting a "cold-blooded" killing. A Saudi pan-Arab daily, Asharq al-Awsat, warned of "another Abu Ghraib," a reference to the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by some of their American jailers. Juan Cole, a University of Michigan professor who is an expert on Arab media, noted that at one point an anchor on Al-Jazeera "was almost having a heart attack, he was so angry," about the video showing the shooting by the Marine. "He said, "Where are the Arabs? Where are the Arab states, why is nobody complaining about this?" Cole noted, speaking on the Public Broadcasting Service. The pan-Arab daily Al-Hayat cited both killings as images of what is happening in Iraq now, Cole noted, calling it unfair for the Marine, whose case remains under investigation, to be compared to those who killed Hassan. Amman car rental clerk Youssef al-Atoum was so disgusted by the pictures of the Marine shooting that "I switched off the TV." "The Americans are criminals, they don't distinguish between a mosque and their places of battle, they want to exterminate Arabs and erase Iraq and its people from the map," the 29-year-old said. Jordanian businessman Isa Samawi, 42, said: "Exterminating the Americans is the way to combat international terrorism." Both declined to comment on Hassan, saying they had neither seen nor heard news of the killing of the 59-year-old aid worker who had been an opponent of the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq. She was abducted in Baghdad on Oct. 19 on her way to work, the most prominent of more than 170 foreigners kidnapped in Iraq this year. A Lebanese Shiite Muslim cleric, Sheik Afif Nabulsi, said both the killing in the mosque and the shooting of Hassan were "barbaric acts that cannot be condoned."

	18-11-2004 02:23									#195
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quote: Originally posted by Sinapus Yet it is presumed the Marine was evil to shoot the poor hapless member of a group that routinely uses false surrenders and other tricks (like, oh, faking death or wounding) to kill their enemies. Riiight.

Routinely? Do we actually know that they routinely do that? Or is it just something that reportes come up with when they are bored and don't know what to write.

As for all assumptions, do we even know that the person that was shot was even an insurgent? Let's face it. We don't have much of a clue at all. No matter if our initial reaction is that the marine is satan in human form or that he's an all american hero.

	18-11-2004 02:33									#196
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Americans are only good at conquering, not governing. As long as they stay there they will only be doing things like this. They would be better off just turning the whole thing over to the British, who would at least do a better job at rebuilding Iraq, and governing it until that goal was accomplished.

	18-11-2004 03:11									#197
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quote: Americans are only good at conquering, not governing.

We did just fine in Japan.

	18-11-2004 03:17									#198
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: Americans are only good at conquering, not governing. We did just fine in Japan.

Put Hirohito in charge of Iraq then

	18-11-2004 03:27									#199
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Not that this should come as a surprise to anyone...

I'm more upset at the US military for giving the Arab media this kind of fodder than I am upset that some Iraqi got killed. The US is losing the propaganda war horribly.

	18-11-2004 03:31									#200
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It's pretty much inevitable in this sort of situation, Sava. I'm annoyed too, but when one sends in a large number of soldiers into urban combat with irregular rebel/terrorist forces... I mean, come on, stuff like this is bound to happen, no matter how "good" our guys are. That doesn't mean it's ok, no investigation needed. Not at all. But realistically, this was bound to happen.

This is one of the reasons that the neocon vision was considered nutty for so long.

-Arrian

	18-11-2004 03:41									#201
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When you have to resort to this type of thing, you've already lost control. It can never be regained.

	18-11-2004 03:46									#202
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: Americans are only good at conquering, not governing. We did just fine in Japan.

Wasn't that bad a job done in E Germany either.

	18-11-2004 03:50									#203
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East Germany?

	18-11-2004 03:52									#204
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quote: Originally posted by Sinapus Mr. Horse: That's nice to hear you have no problem with it. Alas, the sanctimonious prattle I was referring to was that part you wrote about how people who support wars "have very unrealistic ideas about the reality of the battlefield" and (my favorite) "if people knew what war is really like there wouldn't be any wars". That is rather unlikely, but I guess it's nice to have dreams. HTH, HAND.

It is nice to have dreams that don't involve war - everyone should have them.

	18-11-2004 03:55									#205
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quote: Al-Jazeera was among the stations airing the Marine shooting. The station said Tuesday it also had received a videotape showing a blindfolded woman believed to be Margaret Hassan being shot in the head at close range, but had chosen not to broadcast it. "We don't show acts of killing," Jihad Ballout, Al-Jazeera spokesman, said of the decision not to show the slaying of the longtime director of CARE in Iraq.

Is anyone still under the illusion that Al Jazeera is anything other then a propaganda ministry?

	18-11-2004 04:00									#206
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Yes, I am - Fox does the prop.

	18-11-2004 04:06									#207
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat Wasn't that bad a job done in E Germany either.

Well, considering that in the case of East Germany they merely traded one oppressive, totalitarian state for another, I'd say we did a piss-poor job

	18-11-2004 06:20									#208
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quote: Originally posted by Ned To be fair, Azazel to the other side in this argument, the woman hostage posed a grave risk to her kidnappers. She had been allowed to be by herself for a while. What did she do? Pick up an AK47 and start spraying the brave jihadist with bullets. When overpowered, she pretended to be dead to get the sons of Allah to drop their guard. Her beheading, by Zarqawi, the commander in chief, was a simple act of self defense by rattled young men in the heat of combat.

Yaaay (Ironic Cheer) the Nedaverse strikes again...

Don't you actually follow the news at all? Is your comprehension that piss poor?

Oh wait - of course it is, that is why we have the 'Nedaverse'...

I think you'll find that even Zarqawi told the group that had taken her to release her - so take your sh*t and shove it where the sun doesn't shine...

Fact is even the fundies realised it was a bad move - the country is so lawless it could even have been perpetrated by a pro Allawi group to make the insurgents look bad, why not? They had absolutely nothing to gain by doing it...

As for the marine - a man was killed in cold blood. End of story.

Apparently he was wounded in the cheek the day before. WTF are they doing sending wounded back into duty!!?

Oh wait - there aren't enough troops in Iraq are there?

Either way the guy was defenceless and unarmed - and murdered. In front of a camera...

How many other people have been murdered away from the cameras??? I'd say quite a few...

The point the moronic chicken hawk armchair generals can't get through their tiny little brains is the fact that this quasi religious crusade supposedly against terrorists - is showing the US acting as poorly as they do...

How can you justify the war on terror when your country is in serious danger of looking just as bad as the people you seek to vilify!!? Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, indiscriminate killings of civilians - Iraq in general...

Nice to see all those gun-toting midwest bible-bashing christian fundie republicans justifying what this soldier has done - your country really is ****ed.

Yaaay, NASA just successfully tested a scramjet - what's this amazing technological advance for? So the US military can strike targets thousands of miles away within 2 hours...

	18-11-2004 07:59									#209
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Proteus -

quote: They really knew about the wounded?

According to the audio tape, yes. They knew there were wounded prisoners inside awaiting pick up from the day before.

quote: If this is true it will be even worse PR for the US and their Troops than it is already.

Yup. That perception will drive the prosecution of this soldier.

quote: Obviously three other of the five wounded insurgents were also shot at by the second team (but probably not filmed), which, if true, means that only one of the wounded was left unharmed by these marines.

Killed? I only heard about the one shooting.

	18-11-2004 08:14									#210
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS Fact is even the fundies realised it was a bad move - the country is so lawless it could even have been perpetrated by a pro Allawi group to make the insurgents look bad, why not? They had absolutely nothing to gain by doing it...

Except there is zero evidence of any thing like this ever happening. Also Allawi is trying to build his reputation as a man who can bring law and order and it directly harms him when things like this happen. I'd say he has ever reason not to do anything like your wild conspiracies.

quote: As for the marine - a man was killed in cold blood. End of story.

Thankfully, it is not the end of the story and the court has more to say in the matter then you.

quote: How many other people have been murdered away from the cameras??? I'd say quite a few...

And I'd say you have no idea what you are talking about. You have no evidence of anything and are mirely guess; very badly guessing based upon your own bias. Speaking of your bias:

quote: Nice to see all those gun-toting midwest bible-bashing christian fundie republicans justifying what this soldier has done - your country really is ****ed.

I think that quote shows exactly what I was talking about with your personal bias.