18-11-2004 03:37									#1
	Graphics for Freeciv 2.0 and beyond... Suffering from ads?

Synopis:
This thread is part of a project for using Civ2 type graphics in a new tileset for Freeciv 2.0 . It is also a primer for Freeciv in general.

Note: see end of text for updates


Freeciv, the open source version of Civilization has entered the beta stage for a major release. In the last few years there have been some major upgrades in the Freeciv engine. Including AI diplomacy, various mapping topologies (hex based maps for civ), a general effects model (less things hardcoded., you can create your own city improvements in the rules file), more MP functions...etc... the list goes on.
Certain aspects still need some work. A major issue still standing is the graphics. Freeciv still uses the tileset it started with a decade ago. Despite a number of improvements to the Freeciv tilesystem: PNG, flexible tileset formats, 200+ ingame units. So whatīs the problem?

If thereīs a problem here itīs pathdependency. Most players prefer it because itīs the only consistent tileset. Bland graphics but functional and practical. After 10 years it still uses an evolved version of that tileset (more on that later). With 2.0 in the pipeline it is time for a new one. Based on the best of the best...

...and itīs gonna be brilliant when it is ready.


More posts to follow in the coming days.


update: 22 dec '04
All units in the tileset will be marked with the author's personal tag/symbol/sign.

Last edited by CapTVK on 23-12-2004 at 02:21

	18-11-2004 08:20									#2
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Hexes!

	18-11-2004 08:41									#3
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We have a vast amount of graphics and excellent artists here.

If you could make a full list of required units and other elements in this thread;

I am sure we could all pitch in and cover the bases...

	18-11-2004 16:55									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Boco Hexes!

Yes, I tinkered with them when the first set came out. Back then it was still projected on a standard map. The mapping system didn't allow hex based maps back then. This time they're genuine.

code:

---- ===topology - Map topology index===

Freeciv maps are always two-dimensional. They may wrap at the north-south
and east-west directions to form a flat map, a cylinder, or a torus (donut).
Individual tiles may be rectangular or hexagonal, with either a classic or
isometric alignment - this should be set based on the tileset being used.
   0 Flat Earth (unwrapped)
   1 Earth (wraps E-W)
   2 Uranus (wraps N-S)
   3 Donut World (wraps N-S, E-W)
   4 Flat Earth (isometric)
   5 Earth (isometric)
   6 Uranus (isometric)
   7 Donut World (isometric)
   8 Flat Earth (hexagonal)
   9 Earth (hexagonal)
  10 Uranus (hexagonal)
  11 Donut World (hexagonal)
  12 Flat Earth (iso-hex)
  13 Earth (iso-hex)
  14 Uranus (iso-hex)
  15 Donut World (iso-hex)
Classic rectangular:       Isometric rectangular:
      _________               /\/\/\/\/\ 
     |_|_|_|_|_|             /\/\/\/\/\/ 
     |_|_|_|_|_|             \/\/\/\/\/\
     |_|_|_|_|_|             /\/\/\/\/\/ 
                             \/\/\/\/\/  
Hex tiles:                 Iso-hex:
  /\/\/\/\/\/\               _   _   _   _   _       
  | | | | | | |             / \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \      
  \/\/\/\/\/\/\             \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/  
   | | | | | | |            / \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \      
   \/\/\/\/\/\/             \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/    

Level: Vital.
Category: Geological.
Can be changed during a game.

Minimum: 0, Default: 1, Maximum: 15

Value set to 0
---- ===generator - Method used to generate map===

0 = Scenario map - no generator;
1 = Fully random height generator;              [4]
2 = Pseudo-fractal height generator;             [3]
3 = Island-based generator (fairer but boring)   [1]

Numbers in [] give the default values for placement of starting positions. 
If the default value of startpos is used then a startpos setting will be
chosen based on the generator.  See the "startpos" setting.

Level: Vital.
Category: Geological.
Can be changed during a game.

Minimum: 1, Default: 1, Maximum: 3

Value set to 0

	18-11-2004 16:58									#5
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quote: Originally posted by curtsibling We have a vast amount of graphics and excellent artists here. If you could make a full list of required units and other elements in this thread; I am sure we could all pitch in and cover the bases...

Thanks for the offer. I've been browsing through various threads here and there are plenty of potential candidates.

	18-11-2004 19:41									#6
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I could only second Master Curt's plan! Post it

	19-11-2004 01:41									#7
	Freeciv the elder: Trident and Isotrident Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Iīm getting to that Jim panse. All in due time...

First Iīve got something to tell about tilesets via some screenshots. First up is Trident the classic tileset.

Attachment: freeciv1800ad-trident.png
This has been downloaded 291 time(s).

Last edited by CapTVK on 19-11-2004 at 02:01

	19-11-2004 01:59									#8
	And his brother... Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

And hereīs one in IsoTrident . Notice the similarity? Itīs exactly the same map with a different (isometric) tileset!

So what does that mean in theory? Depending on the map system (rectangular, isometric) you can create a tileset in any format. From 1x1 till 120x120 or even higher.

In practice you have to create one first. Making your own from scratch is tricky however*. For that reason most people stick to the standard formats. Trident has its roots in the original Civ1 format. IsoTrident uses the Civ2 format. There other formats as well but these are most regular.




*Although there is an easy way if you use the right formats. But thatīs for later on.

Attachment: freeciv1800ad-isotrident.png
This has been downloaded 285 time(s).

	20-11-2004 03:48									#9
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Ok, I'm almost ready to start. From tomorrow on I'll start posting units that could be included. It won't be the definite set but iI'll go a long way.


I'll start off with the modern era. First up tomorrow: planes

But in the meantime I'll show you what the current set looks like now (the new one is going a lot bigger ):

Attachment: units.png
This has been downloaded 252 time(s).

	20-11-2004 03:51									#10
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Before I forget, the 4th beta has just been released. Windows binaries are also available at

http://www.freeciv.org/index.php/Freeciv

	20-11-2004 17:59									#11
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What palette will be supported? Can you use 16-bit?

	20-11-2004 18:04									#12
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Ok, I've made an initial selection of planes, plus some missiles and AA. The ones without a sig are from from Curt Siblings "Vendetta" scenario. The only plane missing is right now is an AWAC. Does anyone have one at hand?

Attachment: apolyton-planes.png
This has been downloaded 233 time(s).

	20-11-2004 18:08									#13
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quote: Originally posted by fairline What palette will be supported? Can you use 16-bit?

FC uses PNG. I can use 16/24-bit plus transparency levels. For the moment I will concentrate on the Civ2 palette when possible as most units are based on that. Aside from a couple of tweaks here and there.

	20-11-2004 18:11									#14
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And here is the updated set. (now with AWACS)

Attachment: hires-apolyton-units.png
This has been downloaded 230 time(s).

Last edited by CapTVK on 20-11-2004 at 18:25

	20-11-2004 18:13									#15
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One AWACS...

Attachment: awacs.bmp
This has been downloaded 18 time(s).

	20-11-2004 18:23									#16
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quote: Originally posted by vodkakov One AWACS...

Thanks, that one is in.

	21-11-2004 22:46									#17
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Here's a new update. Mostly ships from Captain Nemo's WW2 collection and his US civilwar scenario (was that ever released?), Bebro's collection of historic ships. The carrier is from Fairline, although i'm still dubbing about Curt's version.

Now I'm looking for :
a) one hot spy
b) a merchant (camel not required but welcome)
c) a big freight truck with ('GPL' on the side)

Attachment: hires-apolyton-units.png
This has been downloaded 213 time(s).

	22-11-2004 03:02									#18
	CapTVK takes to the canvas Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Btw I've also been trying my hand at some unit work. I've decided to do some work on a barbarian leader I found in one of Leonidas's scenario.

Here he is (and he's loaded with goodies)

Attachment: captvk-barbarianleader.png
This has been downloaded 200 time(s).

	22-11-2004 17:11									#19
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One important thing that should be mentioned I think, just so there are no doubt about it. There some pre.reqs for gfx to be included in freeciv:

It has to be licensed under the GPL license. It can therefore not be based on or derived from gfx from a proprietary game which do not allow it to be released under the GPL.

This means the gfx needs to be drawn from scratch, or be based on gfx already licensed under GPL (or any license that is compatible with GPL).

	23-11-2004 02:13									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Yog-Sothoth One important thing that should be mentioned I think, just so there are no doubt about it. There some pre.reqs for gfx to be included in freeciv: It has to be licensed under the GPL license. It can therefore not be based on or derived from gfx from a proprietary game which do not allow it to be released under the GPL. This means the gfx needs to be drawn from scratch, or be based on gfx already licensed under GPL (or any license that is compatible with GPL).

Thanks for the reminder YS. Having done earlier work for Freeciv and related projects I'm well aware of that fact.

Luckily a number of authors like Captain Nemo, Alex Mor and Harlan already have given permission. So I don't have to track down three or more authors for some graphics (Quite a number of other units have their origin in Nemo's WW2 scenarios). Knowing you have access to the "base of the tree" makes things a bit easier.

For the moment I'm concentrating on finding original* units for a good set. Because I have the full set of Civ2 games at home I'm also vetting any units for possible infringement. Once that is well underway I'll ask for permission from the other authors for their work to be included under the GPL.

*Note: This means that commercial graphics and rips from other games (like imperialism 2, AoE, Warcraft, etc... ) are a nono. Unless they've given permission, very unlikely but it happens .

	23-11-2004 08:21									#21
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quote: Originally posted by CapTVK Luckily a number of authors like Captain Nemo, Alex Mor and Harlan already have given permission. So I don't have to track down three or more authors for some graphics (Quite a number of other units have their origin in Nemo's WW2 scenarios). Knowing you have access to the "base of the tree" makes things a bit easier.

You sick sorry man...

	23-11-2004 08:27									#22
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by CapTVK Here's a new update. Mostly ships from Captain Nemo's WW2 collection and his US civilwar scenario (was that ever released?), Bebro's collection of historic ships. The carrier is from Fairline, although i'm still dubbing about Curt's version. Now I'm looking for : a) one hot spy b) a merchant (camel not required but welcome) c) a big freight truck with ('GPL' on the side)

IMO the Explorer looks more out of place.

The boats are just plain fantastic. Diplomat also looks good. Ditto for the Artillery and Catapult (actually a Trebuchet I think). That Carrier is excellent.

Regarding the planes, I think you should select WWII planes for Fighter and Bomber. e.g. the Messerschmitt Bf 109 in the bottom left of the planes you posted and the Avro Lancaster, second from the left, third from the top. That Stealth Fighter is actually not a Fighter plane at all, but a Tupolev 22M Backfire Bomber IIRC. You should get the Rafale or Eurofighter instead IMO (Rafale is 3rd from the top, 3rd from the right).

- Vasc, who knows more about military hardware than perhaps he should.

	23-11-2004 12:16									#23
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by typhoon You sick sorry man...

Seems a bit harsh. What's your problem Typhoon?

	23-11-2004 12:25									#24
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I'd agree with some of Vasc's points. He's right about the Tu-22 I drew - it's a bomber. I'd go with a piston-engined first-generation fighter and bomber. (BTW, there are better drawings of the Lancaster and B-17 available ). I'd lose my super-carrier and replace it with Curt's edits of Nemo's WW2 version - seems a bit odd having a US super-carrier as a generic unit.

CapTVK, you said earlier that far more slots are now available, but your final unit compilation has the same number of slots (?)

IMHO you should go with a consistent style for the planes/ships/tanks; either stick to isometric or the side-view you have for some of the units. Just my 2-p's worth

	23-11-2004 12:33									#25
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quote: Originally posted by typhoon You sick sorry man...

What did i say wrong?

That statement wasn't meant to be degrading. I need to be sure that the creator has given permission for use. Some graphics still have CapNemo's sig next to them, *meaning* i must have his permission as well apart from the other artist.

I'm sorry if i caused offense.

	23-11-2004 12:37									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Vasc IMO the Explorer looks more out of place. The boats are just plain fantastic. Diplomat also looks good. Ditto for the Artillery and Catapult (actually a Trebuchet I think). That Carrier is excellent. Regarding the planes, I think you should select WWII planes for Fighter and Bomber. e.g. the Messerschmitt Bf 109 in the bottom left of the planes you posted and the Avro Lancaster, second from the left, third from the top. That Stealth Fighter is actually not a Fighter plane at all, but a Tupolev 22M Backfire Bomber IIRC. You should get the Rafale or Eurofighter instead IMO (Rafale is 3rd from the top, 3rd from the right). - Vasc, who knows more about military hardware than perhaps he should.

Your right, I retrospect having a F15 and a B52 bomber instead of a piston based airplanes is a bit odd.

	23-11-2004 12:50									#27
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quote: Originally posted by fairline I'd agree with some of Vasc's points. He's right about the Tu-22 I drew - it's a bomber. I'd go with a piston-engined first-generation fighter and bomber. (BTW, there are better drawings of the Lancaster and B-17 available ). I'd lose my super-carrier and replace it with Curt's edits of Nemo's WW2 version - seems a bit odd having a US super-carrier as a generic unit.

Thanks, I'll replace those in the next update.

quote: CapTVK, you said earlier that far more slots are now available, but your final unit compilation has the same number of slots (?)

This version is based on Freeciv-Hires, a tileset (GPL) which has the same number of slots as the original. I'm planning to do a bigger version later but the official FC release might be closer than i thought.

quote: IMHO you should go with a consistent style for the planes/ships/tanks; either stick to isometric or the side-view you have for some of the units. Just my 2-p's worth

Good points, my intention is to go for consistency. So all the units will be isometric and look about the same in style.

	23-11-2004 13:31									#28
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quote: Originally posted by CapTVK Thanks for the reminder YS. Having done earlier work for Freeciv and related projects I'm well aware of that fact.

Yes, I know that you are familiar with the GPL license. My intention was to inform other participants in this thread which might not be so familiar with it

Good to here that you are screening stuff diligently, I think this will turn out very nice.

	23-11-2004 15:02									#29
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quote: Originally posted by CapTVK What did i say wrong? That statement wasn't meant to be degrading. I need to be sure that the creator has given permission for use. Some graphics still have CapNemo's sig next to them, *meaning* i must have his permission as well apart from the other artist. I'm sorry if i caused offense.

oops I'm sorry, I really didn't mean it that way. I meant it as a compliment for being so devilishly clever. The phrase was supposed to have looked like this:

quote: You sick sorry man

I apologise for the misunderstanding caused by using the wrong smiley.


In any case, here is a great units set by Reno ('Womoks') from Civfanatics. A very nice consistent style, and an innovative way of modifying vanilla Civ2 units by adding an outline and sharpening so they all look unifrom

	23-11-2004 22:12									#30
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by typhoon In any case, here is a great units set by Reno ('Womoks') from Civfanatics. A very nice consistent style, and an innovative way of modifying vanilla Civ2 units by adding an outline and sharpening so they all look unifrom

Those look very nice, I like the black outline. But a lot of those come from Civilization II (some boats, musketeers, etc) and we need to get the authorization to license under the GPL from all of that graphic's authors, from bottom up.

Regarding additional unit slots, in Freeciv you can have upto 200 different units. By default, we still use mostly the Civilization II set + AWACS + Worker, but for e.g. Hirisov has made a different ruleset which changes the boats to be more balanced. See:
http://forum.freeciv.org/viewtopic.php?p=2939

I made a ruleset mod that added, besides the plain old u-boat submarine, fast attack subs (high attack) and strategic subs (large missile carrying capacity). But I haven't managed to convince everyone so I could sneak them into the default set yet.