19-11-2004 13:10									#91
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Who paid for the wind-surfer ad?

	19-11-2004 13:20									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Ned The Swift Boat folks, yes. But not the Republican Party and not Bush. Contrast that with the vile Terry McCauliff.

Did you ever go to factcheck.org? It listed lie after lie about Kerry that was told by the Republican party and by the Bush Administration. This is a Republican founded organization and even they called BS on a ton of the crap Bush was shoveling.

	19-11-2004 13:37									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Continuing attacks on Republicans and Fox News for spewing out vile lies when the truth is that it was the Democrats who were lying constantly (see Michael Moore for example) and who were vile beyond all measure of civility.

I find it funny that you link Fox News with the Republicans. That says a lot about what Fox is all about.

	19-11-2004 13:57									#94
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Tingkai, there are few openly Republican hosts on Fox News. There are a few openly Democrat hosts as well.

	19-11-2004 14:07									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I just can't get over bigotry and snobbery of you Canadiens.

a) Jimmy is American
b) He does not, AFAIK play hockey at a professional level

	19-11-2004 14:08									#96
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On the sixth day God turned to Archangel Gabriel and said: "Today I am going to create a land called Canada, it will be a land of outstanding natural beauty. It shall have tall majestic mountains full of mountain goats and eagles, beautiful sparkling lakes bountiful with bass and trout, forests full of elk and moose, high cliffs over-looking sandy beaches with an abundance of sea life, and rivers stocked with salmon."

God continued, "I shall make the land rich in oil so as to make the inhabitants prosper, I shall call these inhabitants Canadians, and they shall be known as the most friendly people on the earth."

"But Lord," asked Gabriel, "don't you think you are being too generous to these Canadians?"

"Not really," replied God, "just wait and see the neighbours I am going to give them."

	19-11-2004 15:26									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Bill who?

Bill "lets go to the phones" O'Reilly.

	19-11-2004 15:58									#98
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quote: Tingkai, there are few openly Republican hosts on Fox News. There are a few openly Democrat hosts as well.

I'll paraphrase Bill O'Reilly's rebuttal to Paul Krugman's (et al) charge of Republican or "conservative" bias: Greta and Colmes are liberals, Hannity is a conservative, Brit Hume is moderate to conservative, and Bill is a "traditionalist". Yup, that was Bill's BS proof of "fair and balanced".

Well, Greta may be a liberal but she has a legal show where they spend months talking about Scott Peterson and Kobe Bryant, not a political talk show. And Colmes? Yeah, he's a liberal but he tries to be honest. His "counterweight" - Sean Hannity - is a loudmouthed, obnoxious, half-witted conservative who is paid to lie about others and he more than earns his keep. Hume's right of center, but Bill claiming to be a traditionalist is . So Fox has a meek liberal, a legal beagle liberal, and 3 Republicans - I count that as 3 to <1...

	19-11-2004 16:28									#99
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In Fox's defense the vast majority of their "bias" is in opinion shows. They have less hard news than CNN, but it is probably 98% the same as CNN.

	19-11-2004 16:36									#100
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Sikander: I used to think this but that's not true so much any more. In the middle of "The Factor", which is their headline news show, Bill O'Realy busts in with his opinion in just about every interview (inevitably a very conservative take which normally attempts to mischaracterize the opposition) then he cuts to commercial. In the rare event he give the other guy the last word he normally gives then 3-5 seconds to rebut O'really's 30 second monologue.

There is a big dose of opinion at least in the "O'Really Factor" and that's Fox's main news program and rating grabber.

	19-11-2004 17:39									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Sikander: I used to think this but that's not true so much any more. In the middle of "The Factor", which is their headline news show, Bill O'Realy busts in with his opinion in just about every interview (inevitably a very conservative take which normally attempts to mischaracterize the opposition) then he cuts to commercial. In the rare event he give the other guy the last word he normally gives then 3-5 seconds to rebut O'really's 30 second monologue. There is a big dose of opinion at least in the "O'Really Factor" and that's Fox's main news program and rating grabber.

The O'Reilly factor isn't a news show, it's commentary / faux debate. And I agree that the man is insufferable.

	20-11-2004 01:56									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker I'll paraphrase Bill O'Reilly's rebuttal to Paul Krugman's (et al) charge of Republican or "conservative" bias: Greta and Colmes are liberals, Hannity is a conservative, Brit Hume is moderate to conservative, and Bill is a "traditionalist". Yup, that was Bill's BS proof of "fair and balanced". Well, Greta may be a liberal but she has a legal show where they spend months talking about Scott Peterson and Kobe Bryant, not a political talk show. And Colmes? Yeah, he's a liberal but he tries to be honest. His "counterweight" - Sean Hannity - is a loudmouthed, obnoxious, half-witted conservative who is paid to lie about others and he more than earns his keep. Hume's right of center, but Bill claiming to be a traditionalist is . So Fox has a meek liberal, a legal beagle liberal, and 3 Republicans - I count that as 3 to <1...

Berz, you will have to admit that the Canadians who receive nothing but Bush bashing spin are going to be shocked by FOX News. In fact, they are going to be outraged that ANYONE could challenge their insular view of the world.

	20-11-2004 02:58									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Berz, you will have to admit that the Canadians who receive nothing but Bush bashing spin are going to be shocked by FOX News. In fact, they are going to be outraged that ANYONE could challenge their insular view of the world.

I suppose it is hard for you understand seeing as how you think anything other than FOX News is Bush bashing spin. But you're right - we're the ones with an insular view of the world!

	20-11-2004 03:12									#104
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Yeah, and you are the ones that think the BBC is unbiased.

	20-11-2004 03:25									#105
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quote: They simply presented stories upon an important political issue. I wouldn't call that endorsing or promoting anything.

Was their coverage merely 'presenting' the issue, or endorsing it?

Did they give equal time to the opponents of gay marriage?

	20-11-2004 03:27									#106
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quote: I did business with the Mennonites (old order) north of Waterloo years ago. Very interesting. Most memorable day was when an older guy cracked what I reasoned to be a somewhat off-colour joke....

Old-order Mennonites are much more conservative than I am.

I think it interesting though, that NYE regards me as both a Mennonite and a Catholic.

	20-11-2004 03:31									#107
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quote: They also have the obvious gene pool problem. Their numbers are too small in any one area and as I understand it there is a rotation of women with other like communities on occasion (Ben would probably be a better source on this score however). There are old order communities out west as you are no doubt aware.

Actually, I never grew up in one of these communities so I know little. I became a Mennonite after going away to university in the city.

quote: I find them a good people despite my obvious religious differences (topic only came up once when I discussed the different restrictions they seem to live by with a Mennonite - ie some will drive a car but others won't). They live a life I wouldn't want but on the whole it works for them. Community and family are everything and when contrasted with the neighbouring cities it sure shows.

These are the old order folks. The group of Mennonites that I belong too, are very similar to the Baptists you find across the US.

quote: Maybe my experiences make it easier for me to 'tolerate' Ben than many of the posters here. I wasn't aware of his particular religious bent before...

I haven't spent much time with the conservative Mennonite groups, so I find your observations interesting.

	20-11-2004 03:34									#108
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quote: The net result was that the environment my mother came from and from where I come from is fairly tolerant as well. I too can understand Ben, if I don't always agree with him.

Neat. So you have more contact than I've had.

	20-11-2004 04:18									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Old-order Mennonites are much more conservative than I am. I think it interesting though, that NYE regards me as both a Mennonite and a Catholic.

I thought that you had said something along those lines. Maybe I recall incorrectly.

	20-11-2004 04:21									#110
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No, I don't mean at all that you are incorrect to say this.

Rather, perceptive.

	21-11-2004 21:36									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Yeah, and you are the ones that think the BBC is unbiased.

We just had a thread on the BBC. I think you will find this was NOT the conclusion I arrived at after asking those with a contrary position to prove the independence of the BBC.

Ben -

I wondered obout the Catholic/Mennonite mixture. My knowledge of the different faiths is limited but I understood the Mennonites I dealt with to be of Protestant extraction. And yes, they are obviously a very conservative group though I confess, I don't know if thay are at all politically active (topic NEVER came up).

I did assume you were not old order. Not simply b/c of your use of technology. Although this is obviously a good clue I did business with more than one old order business with a PC on the desk...

Became Mennonite at university? I attended Waterloo where there is a Mennonite College (Conrad Grebel). I even managed to squeeze in a course or two from there. Peace and Conflict studies of course.

	21-11-2004 22:40									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Wezil We just had a thread on the BBC. I think you will find this was NOT the conclusion I arrived at after asking those with a contrary position to prove the independence of the BBC.

Good to hear that. At first blush, I would find it amazing that anyone would long tolerate a publicly funded network that had a strong political bias one way or the other. This is almost like being forced to pay taxes to fund the opposite party. Many conservatives here in United States are continuously outraged that public monies continue to fund the very leftist Public Broadcasting Service for this very reason.

	21-11-2004 22:54									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Good to hear that. At first blush, I would find it amazing that anyone would long tolerate a publicly funded network that had a strong political bias one way or the other. This is almost like being forced to pay taxes to fund the opposite party. Many conservatives here in United States are continuously outraged that public monies continue to fund the very leftist Public Broadcasting Service for this very reason.

I do not receive BBC (we get BBC World which strangely enough is independant of government...) so I can not speak to any bias at the BBC one way or the other. I suspect that since the governing board is appointed by government and funding is provided by government the possibility of bias is there. Just saying you are independant doesn't make it so.

	22-11-2004 00:09									#114
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Is the suggestion that the BBC has a left wing bias or is just bias towards the government of the day?

From what i've read and seen every Government (Tory or Labour) complains about the bias of the BBC against them.

	22-11-2004 00:48									#115
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quote: Many conservatives here in United States are continuously outraged that public monies continue to fund the very leftist Public Broadcasting Service for this very reason.

So let's make PBS moderate! (IOW "compassionate conservative")

	22-11-2004 02:07									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Standup Is the suggestion that the BBC has a left wing bias or is just bias towards the government of the day? From what i've read and seen every Government (Tory or Labour) complains about the bias of the BBC against them.

I hardly think that the BBC is pro-Tory in any manner whatsoever. I think it is anti-Labor only to the extent that Labor has good relations with a Republican president.

	22-11-2004 02:17									#117
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What type of ignoramus would claim PBS as a network is liberal? There are liberal shows and there are conservative show and there are even nonpolitical shows on PBS. What I've see is some reactionary doesn't like a certain show on the network and so he comes running out screaming about how liberal PBS is.

There are tons of conservative shows on PBS. Has anyone ever seen the McLaughlin Group?

	22-11-2004 02:23									#118
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse a) Jimmy is American b) He does not, AFAIK play hockey at a professional level

Yeah, Ned. I'm a New England Yankee living in Canada. Thats a double blow to you.

And no, I don't play hockey either. I can't even skate.

	22-11-2004 04:49									#119
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quote: I wondered obout the Catholic/Mennonite mixture. My knowledge of the different faiths is limited but I understood the Mennonites I dealt with to be of Protestant extraction. And yes, they are obviously a very conservative group though I confess, I don't know if thay are at all politically active (topic NEVER came up).

They are very much Protestant, moreso than many of the other Protestants, particularly the mainline Anglicans, Lutherans and Calvinists. They also tend to shun political activism, you won't find many Mennonites involved in politics, and if you do see them, chances are they didn't grow up in a Mennonite family.

However, what's been happening over the last while, and this is something my Catholic friends have noticed, is that Mennonites tend to not do so well in the cities, where there are much fewer Mennonite churches than they are in the country.

Living in the city, makes it difficult to attend a Mennonite church, so who do most of these Mennonites in the city hang out with? Of all people, Catholics. I know so many young Catholics, more young Catholics than Mennonites due to the fact that I live in the city.

Another thing they have also noticed, if you study the history, the two churches have been moving closer together, rather than further apart. The Anglicans have recently been pushing away from everybody else, along with the United church here in Canada, which is a union of various mainline groups.

So what they are finding, is rather than pushing away these protestants who are in agreement with the Catholic church on the issues of the day, they have been trying to collaborate more with them. This is a direct benefit of Vatican II declaring us separated brethren, it's much easier for both sides to relate to the other, when we give each other credit for what we share in common, as being greater than the differences.

quote: Became Mennonite at university? I attended Waterloo where there is a Mennonite College (Conrad Grebel). I even managed to squeeze in a course or two from there. Peace and Conflict studies of course.

You'd do well to take those courses. It's one of the things that makes Mennonites Mennonites.

	22-11-2004 20:41									#120
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Good info Ben. Thanx.