23-11-2004 01:06									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Wycoff We're just mad because they stole our name! There is only one true Georgia, and its capital is Atlanta, NOT Tblisi State of Georgia: Former Soviet Republic of Georgia:

Yeah, righ, next thing you'll tell me that there is only one true St.-Petersburg and it's located at state Minnesota, USA.

Do you realize that Georgia is a bit (over a thousand years actually) older than American Georgia?

	23-11-2004 01:06									#32
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quote: Originally posted by VJ It's funny how you're the one who starts joking about lack of arguments. Take a look at this thread. Notice how the ones who have agreed with the results of the election are the ones who have made all the arguments and brought up all the points, while the ones who think the election has been a fraud have offered nothing else but arrogant sarcasm?

I took a second look at the thread. I still find arrogant sarcasm to be the most appropriate response. Sorry

	23-11-2004 01:14									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Yeah, righ, next thing you'll tell me that there is only one true St.-Petersburg and it's located at state Minnesota, USA.

There's a St. Petersburg Florida, a Petersburg, Virginia but no major city by that name in Minnesota. There is of course St. PAUL, Minnesota.

Myself, I prefer "little Odessa", in the Brighton Beach section of Brooklyn, NY.

	23-11-2004 01:16									#34
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Sarcasm

Ignorance

Elections

Ukrainian elections

Ted Stryker

	23-11-2004 01:20									#35
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You forgot Ruslana

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	23-11-2004 01:25									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Gangerolf Serb, I'm not saying one side is good and the other is evil. I admit I don't know much about the Ukrainian political system, except that it's obviously highly polarized and that their elections are even more ludicrous than the American ones

It is too damn polarized. The west of Ukraine support Yushenko and pretty happy about idea to became a puppet of US and Europe. The south and east of Ukraine don't like this idea and support Yanukovich. This country is divided.

quote: But isn't it a bit suspicious that the turnout was about 70% in the first round and then 96% in the second round?

It is not. It's called civilization break-up point. It was too damn important issue for Ukranians and increased turnout is not surprising.
But once again, isn't it suspicious that Yushenko won election in western regions with 92- 93,5% lead? Why those loosers don't complain that this is very suspicious?

quote: And they don't seem to want to accept defeat. Now several city councils have announced they recognize Yushchenko as president.

It's their problem. The whole point of elections is to choose the candidate who get support of majority of voters and make this candidate a new president. Loosers may whine as long as they wish. To make a president the candidate who get support of minority is against the idea of elections. It's damn stupid.

	23-11-2004 01:29									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Combat Ingrid You forgot Ruslana

She is Ukranian cheak. And as for me, she is a really bad singer.

But of course I agree about Russia,

	23-11-2004 01:29									#38
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A BBC article which I found quite good:

quote: Q&A: Ukraine election Ukrainians voted in the second round of their hotly contested presidential election on Sunday. With nearly all the votes counted, the authorities say Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych has a narrow lead. But Western monitors said the vote fell far short of European democratic norms. Q: Who are the contenders? Mr Yanukovych, and a former prime minister and leader of the centre-right Our Ukraine opposition, Viktor Yushchenko, went head to head after a field of more than 20 candidates was eliminated in the first round on 31 October. Widespread government pressure and electoral-roll irregularities were reported then and results were not announced until 10 days later. Mr Yushchenko emerged ahead of Mr Yanukovych by just 39.87 % to 39.32 %. With 99% of the second-round votes counted, Mr Yanukovych had 49.4% while Mr Yushchenko was on 46.7%, according to the central electoral commission. The winner will replace Leonid Kuchma, who has run the country for 11 years as prime minister, then president. Experts say the poll will decide whether Ukraine moves closer to the West - as Mr Yushchenko wants - or towards Moscow, under Mr Yanukovych. Q: How powerful is the post? Ukraine is a presidential republic and the head of state has the power to appoint and dismiss ministers and regional governors, as well as to initiate legislation. The government, the Socialists and the Communists have been pressing for reforms which would transfer many powers to parliament. The centre-right opposition opposed them but Mr Yushchenko agreed to phase them in next year in return for Socialist support in the election. Q: What is the system? All Ukrainian citizens aged 18 and above are allowed to vote. There are about 36 million registered voters. Candidates with criminal records are barred. Mr Yanukovych served two prison terms in his youth but he says the convictions were quashed and the records erased. The opposition made this a campaign issue. Q: How was the campaign? Acrimonious, with personal attacks and allegations flying thick and fast. Mr Yushchenko twice accused the authorities of trying to kill him but the authorities denied this. In turn, they have accused broadly pro-Yushchenko groups of plotting "terrorist attacks", such as the bombing of a major Kiev market in August in which 13 people were injured. Mr Yanukovych and Mr Yushchenko both say they will boost economic growth, create jobs, maintain good relations with both Russia and the West, respect the Russian language and withdraw peacekeepers from Iraq. They differ in emphasis, with Mr Yushchenko calling for immediate troop withdrawals and a war on the "bandits" he says are using the government to get rich through corruption. Since the end of October, Mr Yanukovych has stepped up efforts to appeal to Ukraine's large number of Russian-speakers, who mainly live in the east of the country. Q: Who monitored the poll? The candidates themselves and registered foreign observers were allowed to nominate monitors. Independent domestic observers were not allowed and local rights groups complained of a pro-government bias among monitors. The Organisation for Security and Co-operation (OSCE), the Council of Europe and various independent observers have been highly critical of the way the vote was run. CIS observers, however, gave the authorities a much gentler ride. Q: How fair was the vote? The first round triggered a barrage of complaints against the Electoral Commission. As a result, it promised to update electoral rolls to remove dead people and include the tens of thousands who said they were not registered. The opposition was sceptical and called on the public to check the lists themselves before polling day. After the vote, Bruce George of the OSCE said: "The second round did not meet a considerable number of [international] commitments for democratic elections." Q: What of the media? Channels linked to the president gave Mr Yanukovych glowing coverage in the run-up to the election and until recently disparaged Mr Yushchenko at every turn. After the first round of voting, however, a group of reporters on pro-government channels demanded fairer reporting and observers said they detected a change in tone. But Mr Yanukovych still received more extensive and uncritical coverage. Pro-government television stations sandwiched Mr Yushchenko's political adverts between those attacking him personally. Only one national channel, 5 Kanal, has given Mr Yushchenko consistently positive coverage. It is owned by a Yushchenko ally, and has faced closure following what it calls a government campaign against it. Q: What does the public make of it all? Polls since the first round show a narrow lead for one candidate or the other - seen by some as reflecting the polling companies' own preferences. Mr Yanukovych won the industrial east and south of the country in the first round, and was expected to pick up support from the Communist and some Socialist voters. Mr Yushchenko took the western and central areas, as well as the capital Kiev. He claims that he won an outright victory in the first round which the authorities concealed by rigging the vote. Q: What's the view from abroad? Russian President Vladimir Putin paid a controversial visit to Kiev on the eve of the first round, praised Mr Yanukovych's record in office and endorsed many of his policies. He paid a further visit to Crimea on 11 November, where he was heard to wish Mr Yanukovych all the best in the election. Moscow has so far offered no official criticism of the election. The United States and the European Union, on the other hand, have made it clear that a fraudulent election will damage relations.

	23-11-2004 01:29									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Serb It is too damn polarized. The west of Ukraine support Yushenko and pretty happy about idea to became a puppet of US and Europe. The south and east of Ukraine don't like this idea and support Yanukovich. This country is divided.

werent the eastern regions originally added to the old Ukrainian SSR precisely to alter the ethnic makeup of Ukraine?

	23-11-2004 01:31									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Do you realize that Georgia is a bit (over a thousand years actually) older than American Georgia?

Do you realize that American Georgia is over a thousand times better than Former Soviet Republic Georgia? Try a Georgia peach... they're delicious! Plus, American Georgia hasn't been part of a bloody civil war for over 125 years.

American Georgia:

Former Soviet Republic of Georgia:

	23-11-2004 01:35									#41
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Serb:
You know the Ukrainian political system better than I do (well, at least, your knowledge can't be worse than mine )

Who manages the elections? Are the elections managed and checked by all parties, are they directly managed by the State under partisan scrutiny? Are they managed by local authorities?

To me, there is little doubt both sides were willing to cheat. In such a close and hateful election, it's a given. I don't think Yuschenko is any more honest than Yanukovich in this regard. I only wonder if Yuschenko and his goons were empowered to cheat, or if Yanukovich and his goons had the monopoly over cheating.

	23-11-2004 01:35									#42
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark There's a St. Petersburg Florida, a Petersburg, Virginia but no major city by that name in Minnesota. There is of course St. PAUL, Minnesota.

Ah whatever. You steal names, not Georgians or Russians.

	23-11-2004 01:42									#43
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"Only one national channel, 5 Kanal, has given Mr Yushchenko consistently positive coverage. It is owned by a Yushchenko ally, and has faced closure following what it calls a government campaign against it."

It looks like someone has learned from Putin. I assume tax evasion charges will be brought against 5 Kanal.

	23-11-2004 01:47									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Ah whatever. You steal names, not Georgians or Russians.

Georgia was named after King George of England, not after Georgia.

St. Petersburg, Florida, was, I assume, named after St. Peter, who was not a Russian. A Jew by birth, I beleive. Which means that for the first couple of hundred years of the existence of St. Petersburg, Russian, the original St. Peter's parents would not have been allowed to live in St. Petersburg, without special (and difficult to obtain) permits from the government, since that city was not in the Pale of Settlement. Ironic, no?

St. Petersberg was then renamed Petrograd, and later Leningrad, so one would think it has forfeited prior rights to the name.

	23-11-2004 01:49									#45
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark werent the eastern regions originally added to the old Ukrainian SSR precisely to alter the ethnic makeup of Ukraine?

Yeah, sure. It was Khrushev's wise plan to present Crimea to Ukranian SSR in 1954 to assure Yanukovich's victory of 2004.

	23-11-2004 01:51									#46
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Georgia was named after King George of England, not after Georgia. St. Petersburg, Florida, was, I assume, named after St. Peter, who was not a Russian. A Jew by birth, I beleive. Which means that for the first couple of hundred years of the existence of St. Petersburg, Russian, the original St. Peter's parents would not have been allowed to live in St. Petersburg, without special (and difficult to obtain) permits from the government, since that city was not in the Pale of Settlement. Ironic, no? St. Petersberg was then renamed Petrograd, and later Leningrad, so one would think it has forfeited prior rights to the name.

No way. It's our brand.

	23-11-2004 01:55									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Yeah, sure. It was Khrushev's wise plan to present Crimea to Ukranian SSR in 1954 to assure Yanukovich's victory of 2004.

I was thinking way earlier. Why were the eastern coal regions put in the original Ukrainian SSR? Stalins call, no? And no, obviously democratic elections were not envisioned, but ethnic balance in SSR's was still valued. Similarly wrt to Northern Kazakhstan, I believe.

	23-11-2004 01:56									#48
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See, this whole city issue can be only understand through world-famous Russian logic.

1. Mother Russia is always oppressed. Always!

2. In case Mother Russia is not oppressed or oppresses someone else, see point 1.

(Incidentally, in this case, Mother Russia is legitimately oppressed, as St. Petersburg, FL, is indeed named after St. Petersburg, Russia. Damn those foreigners and their evil schemes to oppress Mother Russia!

	23-11-2004 02:00									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Serb It is not. It's called civilization break-up point. It was too damn important issue for Ukranians and increased turnout is not surprising.

Well, it's either that or fraud. Or maybe a combination

quote: But once again, isn't it suspicious that Yushenko won election in western regions with 92- 93,5% lead?

I guess so... Did he do significantly worse in polls and in the first round?

	23-11-2004 02:02									#50
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Georgia is Sakartvelo in Georgian.
Maybe they don't even like being called Georgia.

	23-11-2004 02:04									#51
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Yes it was Sakartvelo that the ancestors chose to call their great country.

	23-11-2004 02:06									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Serb: You know the Ukrainian political system better than I do (well, at least, your knowledge can't be worse than mine ) Who manages the elections? Are the elections managed and checked by all parties, are they directly managed by the State under partisan scrutiny? Are they managed by local authorities?

The elections managed by Central Electoral Commission. It's an idependent institution of state. Checked? Looks like whole world except Africa sent their observers to check Ukranian elections. Your own article answers your questions.

quote: To me, there is little doubt both sides were willing to cheat. In such a close and hateful election, it's a given. I don't think Yuschenko is any more honest than Yanukovich in this regard. I only wonder if Yuschenko and his goons were empowered to cheat, or if Yanukovich and his goons had the monopoly over cheating.

1) It's pretty hard to cheat when there are so many observers at voting stations.
2) Yanukovich had more media coverage, which may be not fair, but it is not a direct cheating with ballots. Yushenko simply bought voters. The scheme was simple. They gave a ballot with Yushenko name, then voter registrate, recive an empty ballot, throw ballot with Yushenko name into basket, give empty ballot to cheaters and recieve his reward. Then they fill this empty ballot with Yushenko name and everything repeats.
You decide who had monoploy.

	23-11-2004 02:15									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Stefu See, this whole city issue can be only understand through world-famous Russian logic. 1. Mother Russia is always oppressed. Always! 2. In case Mother Russia is not oppressed or oppresses someone else, see point 1. (Incidentally, in this case, Mother Russia is legitimately oppressed, as St. Petersburg, FL, is indeed named after St. Petersburg, Russia. Damn those foreigners and their evil schemes to oppress Mother Russia!

OMG J00 PWND RUSSIA!

	23-11-2004 02:15									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Serb 1) It's pretty hard to cheat when there are so many observers at voting stations.

"Observers for the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) said Sunday's run-off vote fell far short of European democratic norms.

The organisation, which also reported serious irregularities in the first round, said violations included a continuing "media bias" in favour of Mr Yanukovych and intimidation of observers and voters. "

	23-11-2004 02:20									#55
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Interesting logic; there were observers at the elections, so the irregularities those self-same observers report cannot have taken place.

	23-11-2004 02:30									#56
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quote: OMG J00 PWND RUSSIA!

M07H3R RU5514 15 4LW4Y5 PWND! 4LW4Y5!

	23-11-2004 02:32									#57
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark "Observers for the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) said Sunday's run-off vote fell far short of European democratic norms. The organisation, which also reported serious irregularities in the first round, said violations included a continuing "media bias" in favour of Mr Yanukovych and intimidation of observers and voters. "

and intimidation of observers and voters.
Sounds lik BS. I didn't wait any other reaction from Europeans and Americans.
Anyhow, if such cases took place, it's a matter of investigation. They can bring their evidences into a court.
Tell me, in 2000 King George II proclaimed himself a new emeror fifty minutes after the voting stations were closed (that's what Yushenko did) or he wait untill all votes has been counted and then go to court?

	23-11-2004 02:34									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Serb and intimidation of observers and voters. Sounds lik BS. I didn't wait any other reaction from Europeans and Americans. Anyhow, if such cases took place, it's a matter of investigation. They can bring their evidences into a court. Tell me, in 2000 King George II proclaimed himself a new emeror fifty minutes after the voting stations were closed (that's what Yushenko did) or he wait untill all votes has been counted and then go to court?

Welcome to the Serboverse.

	23-11-2004 02:44									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Interesting logic; there were observers at the elections, so the irregularities those self-same observers report cannot have taken place.

What irregularities are you talking about? Give me exact example of such irregularities. How exactly Yanukovich could cheat?
So far I heard only - "OMG our candidate have lost, so elections were f*cked, no doubt about that".
If they have evidences they should bring them into Constitutional Court.
IT DOESN'T GIVE THEM RIGHT TO DEPOSE LEGITIMATELY ELECTED PRESIDENT. FIRST THEY SHOULD PROVE IN COURT ILLEGITIMACY OF ELECTIONS.

Is it really so hard to understand? Is it really so hard to imagine that they actually do not have evidences and CAN'T prove their victory in the court? Is it so hard to assume that they are just a bunch of whining loosers who can't accept their defeat and ready achive power through criminal, non-constitutional way?

	23-11-2004 02:46									#60
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I'm curious about a Virgin Mary icon that was shown as part of the demonstrations. Is there some particular religious angle to this election that hasn't been made explicit in the Western press?

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