24-11-2004 02:44									#121
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark He would have been wiser to buy Putin, as the other billionaires did.

Putin is unbuyable.

The other billionaires simply obeyed the informal rules of goodwill set by Putin. As for Khodorkovsky, he was trying to use his wealth to the detriment of vital interests of Russia. OK, we can forgive that he stole the people's property in those years of turmoil and wipe the slate clean. After all, it was inevitable and even necessary. But we cannot forgive this.

	24-11-2004 02:45									#122
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quote: . OK, we can forgive that he stole the people's property in those years of turmoil and wipe the slate clean.

speak for yourself.

	24-11-2004 02:50									#123
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Putin is unbuyable. The other billionaires simply obeyed the informal rules of goodwill set by Putin. As for Khodorkovsky, he was trying to use his wealth to the detriment of vital interests of Russia. OK, we can forgive that he stole the people's property in those years of turmoil and wipe the slate clean. After all, it was inevitable and even necessary. But we cannot forgive this.

what, that virtually everyone in Western Ukraine thinks the election was fraudulent? Why is it up to RUSSIA to forgive or not forgive that? Ukraine is not a part of Russia - yet.

Im reserving judgement on whether the elections are fraudulent or not - the only people OUTSIDE of Ukraine who seem to be certain, are Russians. Interesting.

	24-11-2004 02:55									#124
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark I would suggest that the US has MUCH more to gain by declaring Chavez illegitimate, and the secularists who won in Algeria and Tunisia legitimate, than we do in the outcome in Ukraine.

Perhaps, the victory of Chaves was so overwhelming that it was bad-looking to declare him illegit. In Ukraine, on the other hand, the election was very close.

quote: Despite what you may have been told, the US is not particularly interested in Ukraine, and the US admin is not without considerable sympathy for Vladimir Putin.

There is no contradition at all between sympathy for Putin and the anti-Putin interests in Ukraine. This is just life. And you are very mistaken that the US has no particular interest in Ukraine. The West is simply obsessed with keeping Ukraine out of Russia-led alliances (be it economic or political).

	24-11-2004 02:59									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: . OK, we can forgive that he stole the people's property in those years of turmoil and wipe the slate clean. speak for yourself.

Then let me say it in a diferent way. We have to forgive much of that, like it or not. Let it go, provided that they act in the interest of the country.

	24-11-2004 03:04									#126
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark quote: quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Putin is unbuyable. The other billionaires simply obeyed the informal rules of goodwill set by Putin. As for Khodorkovsky, he was trying to use his wealth to the detriment of vital interests of Russia. OK, we can forgive that he stole the people's property in those years of turmoil and wipe the slate clean. After all, it was inevitable and even necessary. But we cannot forgive this. what, that virtually everyone in Western Ukraine thinks the election was fraudulent? Why is it up to RUSSIA to forgive or not forgive that? Ukraine is not a part of Russia - yet. Im reserving judgement on whether the elections are fraudulent or not - the only people OUTSIDE of Ukraine who seem to be certain, are Russians. Interesting.

I was talking about the oligarchs here, not Ukraine!!

	24-11-2004 03:09									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Care to post any evidence to back up your BAM?

For example, remember what happened in Georgia exactly one year ago. Be sure, whatever happens in Iraq, the election will be declared democratic.

	24-11-2004 03:12									#128
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And roughly a zillion people will protest they were not ...

	24-11-2004 03:12									#129
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quote: As for Khodorkovsky, he was trying to use his wealth to the detriment of vital interests of Russia.

What is the real Bill of Particulars against Khodorkovsky? That he got into politics and criticized the czar? I have no love for Khodokovsky, but I think that the czar's intolerance of criticism is a throwback to darker times and makes no sense besides.

Regarding the Ukraine, I think we need an accurate vote. I don't trust Russia's democratic instincts with regard to accurate votes. The schenanigans in the first vote in Georgia leads me to believe that the trust would be misplaced.

	24-11-2004 03:24									#130
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Of course every former soviet republic that doesnt follow guidance from Moscow is a puppet of the West, interesting how that works.

This is true to some extent, just as well as the reverse statement is.

quote: heres an interesting tidbit "OTTAWA (Reuters) - Canada summoned the Ukrainian ambassador on Tuesday to demand that Kiev immediately probe "allegations of serious fraud" in the second round of a disputed presidential election race over the weekend. "I am concerned by reports ... which indicate a variety of serious violations, including illegal voting practices, violence and patterns of intimidation against voters and election observers," Foreign Minister Pierre Pettigrew said in a statement. A spokesman said the ambassador had been called in to speak to Peter Harder, the ministry's top bureaucrat. Pettigrew is abroad. There are more than 1 million people of ethnic Ukrainian origin in Canada -- around 3 percent of the overall population -- and Ottawa pays close attention to events in the former Soviet republic" Its those evil NeoCon Canadians at work, eh?

LOL. The Canadian Ukrainians most certainly think like the Ukrainians from Western Ukraine. Their opinion is not representable of Ukraine as a whole. The Canadian government, as a good one, simply expresses the opinion of a considerable part of the Canadian population.

It is interesting to note that, in spite of many contraditions surfaced recently between western countries, the position of the West towards Ukraine remains remarkably consolidated.

	24-11-2004 03:35									#131
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Perhaps, the victory of Chaves was so overwhelming that it was bad-looking to declare him illegit. In Ukraine, on the other hand, the election was very close. There is no contradition at all between sympathy for Putin and the anti-Putin interests in Ukraine. This is just life. And you are very mistaken that the US has no particular interest in Ukraine. The West is simply obsessed with keeping Ukraine out of Russia-led alliances (be it economic or political).

I see no sense of the obsession here in Washington. And yes, sympathy for Putin tends here to go along with a tendency to look the other way at Russian actions in the "near abroad". People sympathetic to Putin may still be SYMPATHETIC to the western Ukrainians, but they dont really care about the Ukraine. Or Georgia. Or Moldova.

	24-11-2004 03:39									#132
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond It is interesting to note that, in spite of many contraditions surfaced recently between western countries, the position of the West towards Ukraine remains remarkably consolidated.

What "position" towards Ukraine. Did one western country endorse a candidate as Putin did? The only thing that theyre united in is expressing concern about the POSSIBILITY of vote fraud. And the reason theyre united is because there have been many such reports from UKRAINIANS and from international observers.

	24-11-2004 03:41									#133
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quote: Originally posted by DanS What is the real Bill of Particulars against Khodorkovsky? That he got into politics and criticized the czar? I have no love for Khodokovsky, but I think that the czar's intolerance of criticism is a throwback to darker times and makes no sense besides.

I wouldn't say that Putin is very tolerable of criticism. But what you say is very much an oversimplification. Khodorkovsky got what he got basically for two reasons:

1) He was behaving too shamelessly on the political arena. He was buying deputies, no matter pro-western liberals or communists, to lobby his interests in the Duma. He was even openly bragging of that.

2) He was acting against vital interests of Russia. In particular, he was trying to sell his oil company to Americans, which was deemed unacceptable.

quote: Regarding the Ukraine, I think we need an accurate vote. I don't trust Russia's democratic instincts with regard to accurate votes. The schenanigans in the first vote in Georgia leads me to believe that the trust would be misplaced.

The sad truth is that no-one's democratric instincts can be trusted in this case of Ukraine, nor Russia's, nor the West's. There is so much at stake for both sides. Don't think that you are on a higher moral ground than Russia here.

	24-11-2004 03:43									#134
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond I wouldn't say that Putin is very tolerable of criticism. But what you say is very much an oversimplification. Khodorkovsky got what he got basically for two reasons: 1) He was behaving too shamelessly on the political arena. He was buying deputies, no matter pro-western liberals or communists, to lobby his interests in the Duma. He was even openly bragging of that.

IE he was giving money to opposition parties. First rule in politics, defund your opposition.

	24-11-2004 03:45									#135
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond I wouldn't say that Putin is very tolerable of criticism. But what you say is very much an oversimplification. Khodorkovsky got what he got basically for two reasons: 1) He was behaving too shamelessly on the political arena. He was buying deputies, no matter pro-western liberals or communists, to lobby his interests in the Duma. He was even openly bragging of that. 2) He was acting against vital interests of Russia. In particular, he was trying to sell his oil company to Americans, which was deemed unacceptable.

Of course the ban on sale of companies to foreigners was one of the reasons the billionaires made their money in the first place, since it ruled out the competition for buying them and made sure theyd be sold cheap. You will notice that in Poland Hungary, Czecho, etc privatization did NOT create billionaires.

	24-11-2004 03:46									#136
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond For example, remember what happened in Georgia exactly one year ago. Be sure, whatever happens in Iraq, the election will be declared democratic.

AHHHH! So we're back to pretending the US caused the Georgian people to rise up against a dictator who rigged elections? At least you ruskies are consistant. When asked for evidence about Ukraine you say "evil US did it in Georgia" and when asked for proof about claims in Georgia "evil US did it in Ukraine".

	24-11-2004 03:46									#137
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Do we have any UKRAINIANS here?

	24-11-2004 03:48									#138
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark What "position" towards Ukraine. Did one western country endorse a candidate as Putin did?

No, they did not. But it's plain obvious whom they're supporting.

quote: The only thing that theyre united in is expressing concern about the POSSIBILITY of vote fraud. And the reason theyre united is because there have been many such reports from UKRAINIANS and from international observers.

Sorry, but . They are united because their candidate lost!! Do you seriously think that if Yuschenko won they would be concerned with any possible fraud?

	24-11-2004 03:48									#139
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Re #1, that's certainly a serious charge. Re #2, that's an idiotic charge. He was bringing in sophisticated energy capital and expertise, something that Russia desparately needs right now. Economic nationalism is ridiculous. Besides, all the Russian government had to do was block the sale, if it was worried about the national security implications.

quote: Don't think that you are on a higher moral ground than Russia here.

You see, that's where it's all bullshit. The US has had regular elections for 400 years. It's not that our **** doesn't stink (there is fraud), but we know a rigged election when we see one.

	24-11-2004 03:48									#140
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond It is interesting to note that, in spite of many contraditions surfaced recently between western countries, the position of the West towards Ukraine remains remarkably consolidated.

In so far that everyone agrees tht rigging elections is bad, yes.

	24-11-2004 03:53									#141
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Of course the ban on sale of companies to foreigners was one of the reasons the billionaires made their money in the first place, since it ruled out the competition for buying them and made sure theyd be sold cheap. You will notice that in Poland Hungary, Czecho, etc privatization did NOT create billionaires.

These countries don't have natural resourses. As for Khodorkovsky, selling a company that provides a considerable amount of revenue for the federal budget is simply a matter of national security to Russia.

	24-11-2004 03:56									#142
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond No, they did not. But it's plain obvious whom they're supporting.

No Im afraid its not obvious that theyre supporting ANYONE. It is obvious that the Putin backed candidate CLAIMED that Yuschenko was backed by the West, but i see no evidence of any such support by any Western state.

	24-11-2004 03:58									#143
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond No, they did not. But it's plain obvious whom they're supporting. Sorry, but . They are united because their candidate lost!! Do you seriously think that if Yuschenko won they would be concerned with any possible fraud?

If there was evidence of fraud on the part of Yuschenko, yes. Again, see Tunisia.

	24-11-2004 04:03									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin AHHHH! So we're back to pretending the US caused the Georgian people to rise up against a dictator who rigged elections? At least you ruskies are consistant. When asked for evidence about Ukraine you say "evil US did it in Georgia" and when asked for proof about claims in Georgia "evil US did it in Ukraine".

It's a fact that the US took a considerable part in preparing that 'rose' revolution in Georgia, as you earlier did in Serbia. Is it that the very thought that the US can do something like that offends you? I don't even condemn the US for that. I understand. I simply state that a big game is going on, and that it is not just to blame the Russkies for all the evils of the game you too participate in.

	24-11-2004 04:05									#145
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The difference is that we seek nothing more than accurate vote counts.

We participated in Serbia and Georgia and wouldn't be surprised to see that we participated in the Ukraine. The only thing that I'm sad about is that we didn't participate more in Belorussia.

	24-11-2004 04:06									#146
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Oh, please, DanS.

	24-11-2004 04:08									#147
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"State television: journalists fight back

A month ago, just a few days before the first round of voting in the presidential elections, 42 journalists on 5 central TV channels issued a signed, public statement attacking the censorship under which they are expected to work. The number of signatures has now reached 330 – all of them broadcast journalists.

The statement obliges them to refuse to work on reports that do not meet stringent standards of professional journalism.

Since then there has been a battle to force the management of the TV channels to agree with their journalists ethic standards for news reporting and analysis.

On Channel 5, the only nation-wide channel to make a serious attempt at balanced reporting, a week-long hunger-strike by staff in late October succeeded in beating off attempts to close down the channel.


Newspapers: a pattern of attacks


Tuesday’s issue of Silski Visti (November 16) was blocked at the printers and was not distributed for several days. The entire print run of this major national daily remained at the printers. The issue carried a large interview with Mr Yushchenko – the number had been produced with Mr Yushchenko’s backing and with an extra large print run. A week before the paper had produced a special issue on Yanukovych.


Saturday’s issue of Den (November 20) didn’t come out – the first time in eight years that the national daily had not reached its readers. It’s editorial was critical of Mr Yanukovych, and the paper reportedly declined to print the text of a report by a parliamentary commission investigating accusations that Mr Yushchenko had been poisoned (the report said no evidence had yet been found to confirm he had been poisoned). Over the weekend the paper’s o! wners, linked to the government, tried to replace the editor, Oleg Ivantsov, but journalists refused to accept his replacement, Valery Stepanyuk, who previously worked as a state censor on TV channels Inter and 1+1.



In the city of

Sumi

in northern
Ukraine

, on Thursday (November 18) unknown persons seized some 500 copies of the weekly newspaper Panorama from sellers at the city’s central market, saying that the paper was “opposed to the government” and contained pro-opposition leaflets. The staff reject these accusations, pointing out that if a paper is not actively pro-Yanukovich it is automatically accused of being pro-Yushchenko. The editor in chief of ! the newspaper says he harbours “serious fears that the new issue won’t be allowed to get out.” (On the day of the first round of elections (October 31), a tear gas canister exploded in the building housing the Panorama offices and the offices of radio station Nochnoi Dozor, with which the newspaper collaborates closely. Several staff were injured by the gas.)


In Kharkov, eastern Ukraine, a week before the first round of the elections police attempted to close down the printers where weekly newspaper Obiektiv-NO is printed. When the printers refused, police were stationed at the gates and stopped and checked every car going in. Newspapers then started appearing that looked similar to other well-known newspapers, but were full of propaganda; also “opposition” leaflets appeared with extremist demands, such as calls for civil war. (Before the first round of the elections, police searched the second home of the editor of Obiektiv-NO, Natalia Stativko. Despite all her efforts, she has still received no adequate explanation for the search.)



In Nikolaev, in southern

Ukraine

, the weekly paper Yuzhnaya Pravda was printed on Thursday (November 18) but was not distributed. Journalists on the paper interpret the problems as a repeat of the scenario observed at Silski Visti, and see it as just one of “a mass of such instances in
Ukraine"

	24-11-2004 04:08									#148
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quote: Originally posted by DanS You see, that's where it's all bullshit. The US has had regular elections for 400 years. It's not that our **** doesn't stink (there is fraud), but we know a rigged election when we see one.

Some of us do, anyway.

	24-11-2004 04:08									#149
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I don't think we have anything at all to fear from reasonably accurate vote counts.

	24-11-2004 04:10									#150
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I don't think we have anything at all to fear from reasonably accurate vote counts.

Maybe not this time around.