23-11-2004 21:49									#91
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark except there were other Russian billionaires, just as corrupt, who Putin did NOT go after.

Sorta like the US only goes after countries that "support terrorism" only when they aren't US lackeys.

	23-11-2004 22:20									#92
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4035755.stm

quote: I'm true Ukraine head - Yushchenko Ukrainian opposition leader Viktor Yushchenko has declared himself president in front of his supporters as crowds rallied outside parliament. Mr Yushchenko, who says the election was rigged against him, read the oath of office during a stormy session of parliament attended by opposition MPs. As a mark of protest he put his hand on a Bible and stood at a window to address about 200,000 people outside. Official results showed a narrow win for Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych. Exit polls had indicated a clear win for Mr Yushchenko, who has refused to accept the official result. The move has no legitimacy, but in a symbolic oath of office, Mr Yushchenko swore to "defend the rights and liberties of Ukrainian citizens". Earlier, he told parliament: "Ukraine is on the verge of civil conflict."

	23-11-2004 22:55									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Sorta like the US only goes after countries that "support terrorism" only when they aren't US lackeys.

great powers in their foreign affairs are not required to treat all alike, democracies in their internal affairs are, if they are to be considered democracies.

	23-11-2004 22:56									#94
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It's time to split that baby up. All hail Huntington.

	23-11-2004 23:09									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel It's time to split that baby up. All hail Huntington.

Looks like the split wont exactly follow Sams lines though. By his reasoning only the majority Catholic western area should go. Yesterday Kiev, in the center, and mainly Orthodox, refused to recognize the election and supported Yuschenko. Even assuming the official returns, Yuschenko got lots of votes from Orthodox, and if his supporters claim about vote fraud are to be believed, he may have won close to a majority of Orthodox votes (BTW, Az, aint it a pleasure to be discussing Orthodox votes and not to be thinking about Shas? ) Looks like the split was MORE along linguistic lines (Ukrainian vs Russians and Russified Ukrainians) than along religious/"civilizational" lines.

LOTM, who never misses an opportunity to nitpick Huntington.

	23-11-2004 23:45									#96
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This is starting to get interesting

	24-11-2004 01:11									#97
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Yes, lets fight a civil war instead

	24-11-2004 01:20									#98
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My understanding is that the challenger is popular in Kiev and other Western cities. If so, the fact the the government is centered in Kiev, the demonstrations will be disproportionately large because of geography. Just keep this in mind when looking at the demonstrations in Kiev, which are huge.

I don't know enough to support one side or the others. Most likely I will support neither.

	24-11-2004 01:29									#99
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Hypocrisy of the West has no limits. Whenever their candidate wins, the election is declared the triumph of democracy. Whenever their candidate loses, it is very undemocratic. They welcome civil unrest and various kinds of 'rose' revolutions. I hope the present Ukranian government has the guts to hold out.

	24-11-2004 01:29									#100
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quote: LOTM, who never misses an opportunity to nitpick Huntington.

It's funny that you connect civilization and religion, and distance from language, just in order to have some ammo against Huntington. Your "hug hug hug" act is really cute, though.

	24-11-2004 01:30									#101
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Hypocrisy of the West has no limits.

Your just realising this?

	24-11-2004 01:34									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Your just realising this?

No, I realized this long ago. This is just an additional painful confirmation.

	24-11-2004 01:37									#103
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara My understanding is that the challenger is popular in Kiev and other Western cities. If so, the fact the the government is centered in Kiev, the demonstrations will be disproportionately large because of geography. Just keep this in mind when looking at the demonstrations in Kiev, which are huge.

Very true. In Kiev Yuschenko got about 80%, while Yanukovich only about 17%.

The people of Kiev do not represent the people of Ukraine as a whole.

	24-11-2004 01:43									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: LOTM, who never misses an opportunity to nitpick Huntington. It's funny that you connect civilization and religion, and distance from language, just in order to have some ammo against Huntington. Your "hug hug hug" act is really cute, though.

No, Huntington connect civilization and religion, in particular identify an "orthodox" civilization, and including Poles, Czechs, Slovaks and Croats with "Western" civilization, while identifiying Serbs with Orthodox civilization. He makes an exception for Latin America, IIUC. So its not me, its Sam. Which is one of my problems with him, religion and language are CROSS CUTTING cultural factors.

	24-11-2004 01:46									#105
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Hypocrisy of the West has no limits. Whenever their candidate wins, the election is declared the triumph of democracy. Whenever their candidate loses, it is very undemocratic. They welcome civil unrest and various kinds of 'rose' revolutions. I hope the present Ukranian government has the guts to hold out.

It was widely accepted that Chavezs recent win was democratic, among others hostile to the "West". And it is noted that elections in Algeria and Tunisia and elsewhere are NOT democratic, despite pro-western wins. It does happen that in parts of eastern europe and the ex-soviet sphere fraudulent elections tend to be the specialty of anti-western forces. I would suggest there are good historical reasons for that.

	24-11-2004 01:47									#106
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In fact, if it was not for the expansion of the evil alliances, Russia would not be so against Yuschenko. At least, Putin would not have openly endorsed Yanukovich as he did.

	24-11-2004 01:47									#107
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara My understanding is that the challenger is popular in Kiev and other Western cities. If so, the fact the the government is centered in Kiev, the demonstrations will be disproportionately large because of geography. Just keep this in mind when looking at the demonstrations in Kiev, which are huge. I don't know enough to support one side or the others. Most likely I will support neither.

I support a peaceful solution, whatever happens. No one needs another Yugoslavia.

BTW, since when is Kiev in "Western" Ukraine? I thought it was near the geographic center of the country.

	24-11-2004 01:49									#108
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond In fact, if it was not for the expansion of the evil alliances, Russia would not be so against Yuschenko. At least, Putin would not have openly endorsed Yanukovich as he did.

well d'oh.

	24-11-2004 01:57									#109
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark It was widely accepted that Chavezs recent win was democratic, among others hostile to the "West". And it is noted that elections in Algeria and Tunisia and elsewhere are NOT democratic, despite pro-western wins.

Good for you. I would just like to note that in those cases you (the West) had nothing to lose or to gain by declaring it otherwise. So why not to be truthful once in a while?

quote: It does happen that in parts of eastern europe and the ex-soviet sphere fraudulent elections tend to be the specialty of anti-western forces. I would suggest there are good historical reasons for that.

It does happen. But you would be mistaken if you think that pro-western forces are always much better than that.

	24-11-2004 02:01									#110
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark I support a peaceful solution, whatever happens. No one needs another Yugoslavia.

quote: BTW, since when is Kiev in "Western" Ukraine? I thought it was near the geographic center of the country.

Geographically, it is in the center. But politically, in this election, it is with Western Ukraine.

	24-11-2004 02:04									#111
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If you use one line, instead of two, you just divide Ukraine into Eastern and Western halves.

	24-11-2004 02:07									#112
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark No, Huntington connect civilization and religion, in particular identify an "orthodox" civilization, and including Poles, Czechs, Slovaks and Croats with "Western" civilization, while identifiying Serbs with Orthodox civilization. He makes an exception for Latin America, IIUC. So its not me, its Sam. Which is one of my problems with him, religion and language are CROSS CUTTING cultural factors.

connects, yes, but doesn't make them the same. In fact, in his discussion of torn countries, you'll see many parameters, WRT the ukraine, as well.

	24-11-2004 02:19									#113
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark except there were other Russian billionaires, just as corrupt, who Putin did NOT go after.

Do you remember what Clinton answered to the question why you were going after Yugoslavia while many other similar regimes remained unpunished? He said something like that: "Well, you know, we just cannot go after everyone, but this doesn't mean we shouldn't do what is right in this particular case. Blah, blah."

quote: He only went after the one who supported the political opposition.

Supported the opposition? He was just buying as many deputies as possible to lobby his personal interests in the Duma. And he was buying both pro-western liberals and communists, he didn't care whom. It's amazing how the glorious western media can mislead the public.

	24-11-2004 02:20									#114
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Good for you. I would just like to note that in those cases you (the West) had nothing to lose or to gain by declaring it otherwise. So why not to be truthful once in a while?

I would suggest that the US has MUCH more to gain by declaring Chavez illegitimate, and the secularists who won in Algeria and Tunisia legitimate, than we do in the outcome in Ukraine. Despite what you may have been told, the US is not particularly interested in Ukraine, and the US admin is not without considerable sympathy for Vladimir Putin.

	24-11-2004 02:24									#115
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Do you remember what Clinton answered to the question why you were going after Yugoslavia while many other similar regimes remained unpunished? He said something like that: "Well, you know, we just cannot go after everyone, but this doesn't mean we shouldn't do what is right in this particular case. Blah, blah."

You DO understand the difference between foreign policy, and equal protection of law, dont you? Nations deal with each other strategically, and MUST be inconsistent in their application of principles. A democratic nation applies the law to ITS OWN citizens equally, and without regard to their political positions.

To put it shortly - your own citizens are NOT equivalent to foreign countries.

	24-11-2004 02:25									#116
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Supported the opposition? He was just buying as many deputies as possible to lobby his personal interests in the Duma. And he was buying both pro-western liberals and communists, he didn't care whom. It's amazing how the glorious western media can mislead the public.

He would have been wiser to buy Putin, as the other billionaires did.

	24-11-2004 02:26									#117
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Well they said in the news that the situation there in Ukraine is tensing up by the hour and this night will show how it goes. Meaning if it still stays cool, it might as well turn out peacefully and nothing to see here move along. But if fireworks rise up to the sky, it might turn into heated situation. Not civil war, but heated, meaning riots and stuff.

	24-11-2004 02:28									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Saras Blini Tolstoy Russian meddling in neighbours politics

You are so concerned about Russian meddling that you don't even notice the meddling of other countries. You just expelled President Paksas, and you didn't even notice that you merely served as puppets in someone's skillful hands. Shame, shame, shame.

	24-11-2004 02:28									#119
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Hypocrisy of the West has no limits. Whenever their candidate wins, the election is declared the triumph of democracy. Whenever their candidate loses, it is very undemocratic. They welcome civil unrest and various kinds of 'rose' revolutions. I hope the present Ukranian government has the guts to hold out.

Care to post any evidence to back up your BAM?

	24-11-2004 02:30									#120
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond You are so concerned about Russian meddling that you don't even notice the meddling of other countries. You just expelled President Paksas, and you didn't even notice that you merely served as puppets in someone's skillful hands. Shame, shame, shame.

Of course every former soviet republic that doesnt follow guidance from Moscow is a puppet of the West, interesting how that works. At least he didnt call you a whore, like Serb calls the Ukrainians who support Yuschenko.


heres an interesting tidbit

"OTTAWA (Reuters) - Canada summoned the Ukrainian ambassador on Tuesday to demand that Kiev immediately probe "allegations of serious fraud" in the second round of a disputed presidential election race over the weekend.


"I am concerned by reports ... which indicate a variety of serious violations, including illegal voting practices, violence and patterns of intimidation against voters and election observers," Foreign Minister Pierre Pettigrew said in a statement.


A spokesman said the ambassador had been called in to speak to Peter Harder, the ministry's top bureaucrat. Pettigrew is abroad.


There are more than 1 million people of ethnic Ukrainian origin in Canada -- around 3 percent of the overall population -- and Ottawa pays close attention to events in the former Soviet republic"


Its those evil NeoCon Canadians at work, eh?