25-11-2004 16:08									#1
	GoW - Diplomacy Comments #3 Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Time for a new one of these, the other has hit 500 posts. It might be worth opening a new GoW Diplo thread too. The current one is very heavy.

	25-11-2004 16:18									#2
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO So, before we do any major, critical action, I would like to put a broad plan together, and send it to GoW. In return, I would like to ask that they analyze the Lego battle report, and give us some options on how they can proceed. DeepO

Message sent to MZ on this.

	19-12-2004 18:06									#3
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okay, so MZ it thinking along the same lines as us.

CH, I would send him a message that the post-war situation is also on our minds, a lot even. I would make the following points:

- division of territory (obviously we're interested in rubber, but the dyes need to be discussed as well)
- other countries: would GoW strongly oppose a RP move, or could something be discussed?
- Vox: their free tech make them survivable, plus they might be another team to guard against possible ND aggression. We need urgent talks, though!
- moving troops back to home turf: we want that too. Do we need any kind of agreement on what we both keep on Legoland once this war finishes?
- war coordination itself: nothing is certain right now, we need to see what Lego does first. We can't discuss much before we get the save, or at least the battle report from Lego.

DeepO

	19-12-2004 19:42									#4
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quote: On the territory - of primary interest to GS is the rubber, but the Dyes are obviously a key site for both of us. One idea we are knocking around is for a minor civ to be the Stewards of the Dyes. Would GoW be strongly opposed to a modest claim by RP for some spoils? They have committed themselves to this war, even if it may be nearly over before they can arrive. RP's economic contribution has also been valuable to our alliance's technological edge over Lego. Vox's free tech will obviously come into play. Beyond that is certainly something we need to consider and discuss. We too would like to get our troops home soon. Once we get Lego's battle report we can consider the best next moves. Do we need any kind of agreement on what troops we both keep on Legoland once this war finishes? Also, perhaps we should consider a mutual protection arrangement in case ND tries something silly.

	19-12-2004 19:51									#5
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I like it, CH

DeepO

	19-12-2004 19:52									#6
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Maybe we should include some hint at future alliances, though... give them the idea that in case ND tries something, we would best help each other.

DeepO

	19-12-2004 20:09									#7
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amended and sent

	10-01-2005 15:59									#8
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CH, our report never got sent to GoW, right? It would explain their uncertainty on the transports.

Their idea is a good start, so let's see a map and we can discuss more. However I don't agree with the chokepoint going to Vox, for the reasons already explained (we can't use it offensively, but defensively it's of major importance for us. For GoW it's not so much defensively, but offensively important)

Other nations settling:
RP should be a full partner, but I would be happy to settle them on 'our' side. No problem.
ND is something else. They didn't help us, we helped them in tech. Their only help was in not allying with Lego (not a small point, of course) If they get ground from GoW, we're the ones threatened, not GoW... I don't like that situation.

DeepO

	10-01-2005 18:09									#9
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That's unsettling that ND is pushing GoW for land on lego...

they are setting us up. Not that there is much we can do about it. ND gets a city on legoland, then they have the ability to strike us both at home and on legoland far more easily than otherwise.

we are going to need some creative defensive positions on legoland, which will be the fun part....

	10-01-2005 21:05									#10
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ND getting land on Lego is capital "B" Bullshit. I think we must strongly oppose it.

Throw their "spearhead" argument back at them. They were totally against even a small GS presence on Bob, for security reasons. Fine. We are totally against even a small ND presence on Lego, for security reasons.

That's how I see it, anyway.

-Arrian

	10-01-2005 21:15									#11
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I think I just found a way of closing in on GoW.
follow the following, please

1. with GoW's territory on Lego, and Bob, The combination of GoW and ND has enough land for domination victory, right? Otherwise it will be very close

2. If our territory, or Vox' territory would be the problem, it would be a small problem to conquer either of our two nations, and get the land. Our interests are primarily on Stormia, and they know it. GS-Legoland is easy prey

3. So, in case GoW and ND would go for a joint victory, they already won, and we should better celebrate the end of the game. Continuing beyond this point is only useful in case GoW plans on attacking ND in the future, and not allying with them. If they want to ally, let them do it right now, and proclaim a joint victory. We can't help it anyway.

4. So... why not use this as a way of negotiating with GoW? If they want to ally with us, we would welcome it, and we can start discussing the degree. We're not planning on war, but could be pursuaded. If they don't want to ally with us, they need to ally with ND, as they can't risk ND and GS together. But, if they ally with ND, they are already won, and don't need to play any longer.

So, they only have one choice: work with us, more than with ND.

This has more impact... and if we play it well diplomatically might lead to a big advantage in position. It is however necessary that we are seen as the third power, much smaller than both of them and thus no viable candidate to win by domination. Production, commerce and land wise, that certainly is true, only our military is a bit of a problem.

Basically it means, that either the game has already finished in case ND and GoW band together, or we get to decide who will be the other finalist. Tell GoW we want them, and not ND... and they can choose whether to end the game right now, or keep at it for a while longer.
(In reality, it is more complex as that, as we would need to try to get 3 parties opposed to each other for maximum chance of success)

DeepO

	10-01-2005 21:23									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian ND getting land on Lego is capital "B" Bullshit. I think we must strongly oppose it.

We can't... really. MZ was tricky enough to mention that everyone is free to do with his land what he wants too. And he is correct, we can't interfere when they want to give away land, neither can they interfere with us. RP's claims for land are about the same as ND's, especially when looked at from GoW's side.

quote: Throw their "spearhead" argument back at them. They were totally against even a small GS presence on Bob, for security reasons. Fine. We are totally against even a small ND presence on Lego, for security reasons. That's how I see it, anyway. -Arrian

We can't keep ND from getting a spearhead when GoW wants them to. All they need is receiving a city from GoW at the precise turn their transports are ready to disembark in the city, and they've got a spearhead. Spearheads are only to be avoided when there are no allies on the same continent, otherwise it doesn't matter (and certainly not when they can get from one of their harbours to one of Lego's harbours in 1 turn, so we can't even spot them without spies)

I think we should remind GoW that giving ND a spearhead is primarily their risk, and not ours. RP is bound to us by treaty, they can't attack GoW without our approval, nor can they attack us... they would be annihilated. ND OTOH is not GoW's slave, so giving a spearhead to ND is only a sign of how much GoW trusts them, and is no direct threat to us (at least not more than the GoW threat alone)

DeepO

	10-01-2005 22:35									#13
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I don't see anyway to oppose the idea that MZ is floating. He is correct that all can give away any amount of the new land on lego to anyone they want.


Nothing can be done, other that going to war and that is not feisible. Vox getting the choke points should not be a huge issue for us. We do not fear an attack on Lego from them do we ?

Basically the land on Lego cannot be defended anyway (from ND/GoW). All we can do is to get some dyes and rubber and hope for some future resources to show up.

As was mentioned, we could not defeat a combined Bobian attack and must either ally with GoW or try to prolong the game until we can launch or vote.

The vote will require RP and Vox to be with us and I am not sure how we can gain thiers.

Eventually we will find Lego and eliminate them. They are a potential voter that would never vote for us.

	10-01-2005 23:00									#14
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I would prefer ND on Lego. It may divert some forces of their's to Lego instead of Stormia if war breaks out between us.

If GoW/ND are going to hit us, GoW could just give ND a coastal city anyways. Might as well have ND on the continent and required to defend it from us to have a cost involved for them.

The Rubber and a Harbor (and a line between them) are the only things on Lego we need to hold onto. If we can defend them from GoW we can defend them from ND.

	11-01-2005 16:58									#15
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are harbors necessary? an airport does the job just as well... one less city to defend.

the chokepoint would be nice to have, but no problem to miss. It's just that we never told MZ we would be interested in it for defensive reasons and obviously he is not offering it himself. It might be no problem from their side either. I don't see any reason for us to give territory to Vox, though.

DeepO

	11-01-2005 19:12									#16
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Good points about the spearhead. I think we should say to GoW that we don't think ND has done very much to deserve it, but it's up to GoW to allocate their land.

ND basically milked the alliance for cheap tech, allowing it to build and develop its huge empire while GoW-GS did all the hard work of researching at full cost, building scores of units and destroying the leading Civ. Now ND expects a share of the spoils as if on a footing with RP, who contributed maybe 5000g to the war, built as many units as it could and got a bunch of them killed.

We won't know what else apart from Dyes and Rubber we want on Lego until Fission and Rocketry show up the last two resources.

I agree that we should also ask GoW who's side they want to be on now. If ND, let's call it a day.

	11-01-2005 19:15									#17
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Sorry for not sending that report to GoW over Christmas, DeepO. I was working 12hrs/day from the 23rd to the 26th and was not really on the case. Shall I send it now?

	11-01-2005 21:29									#18
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Don't worry about that report, I wrote it on New Year's Eve, and didn't send it myself either (forgot). But perhaps it's best to send it anyway yes.

I agree that RP should deserve better than ND, but let's not get involved in this. We can say what we think of it, but in no way interfere, it's GoW's choice.

DeepO

	11-01-2005 21:35									#19
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I've been thinking on how the division has to be done. Obviously, we need territory for future resources, but we'll have to see what kind of terrain we get too.

What is important on Legoland, apart from resources, and tiles if you want to go for domination: Food. It won't produce commerce or production anyway, so only food really counts. Every irr grass we can use, is one tax man, or 1 gpt.

I don't know how exactly the division is that GoW is proposing, but I strongly suggest that we demand to get the same, or more food tiles. So we just count every bonus resource, and every grass, plain, and fp tile, and use that to calculate the real gain.

I don't think we should tell them now, if by coincidence we get more food, and GoW only counts tiles, we keep shut, of course. Otherwise, we ask for proper compensation (i.e. more land)

When settling RP, we better make sure they get normal land, and we get the food tiles ourselves. Also, we need loads of cities, possibly even Borging it. There might be some 150 gpt to be made from Legoland.

DeepO

	12-01-2005 01:34									#20
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You're right about the Airport.

I would give the chokepoint to Vox if it helps us swing a deal to get their free tech.

	12-01-2005 05:55									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson I would give the chokepoint to Vox if it helps us swing a deal to get their free tech.

Exactly... which is why we can't let GoW broker the deal for the chokepoint with Vox. Let it fall in our hands, and we can use it in negotiations with Vox if we want to.

DeepO

	12-01-2005 16:42									#22
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So things to say to GoW:

1. If they and GoW wanted to declare a joint domination victory they could do so now. However much some people might not like the idea of a joint victory, GoW-ND could ultimately eliminate all teams but themselves from here and end the game.

2. Do GoW have a map of the intended division?

3. If they wish to offer ND cities on Lego in GoW's half, that is their choice.

4. Outstanding balance on Computers - 1070g

anything else?

	12-01-2005 16:43									#23
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Should we ask how many units were in Spinebreaker?

	12-01-2005 19:26									#24
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I wouldn't say much about spinebreaker, or only a small remark like "we noticed Spinebreaker wasn't empty, so you found magical ways of getting your troops home "
Better leave it out altogether, if we consider it a problem, I suggest we go via Trip before saying anything to GoW.

5. Vox territory: we prefer not to give free territory to Vox. I'm not certain if we want to mention we want a deal with Vox (although we really should be working on that soon, otherwise we're going to miss opportunities). If they want to give Vox territory, it's their choice, and their territory. If we want to give Vox territory, it's our choice and our land. Joint acts of good will never work.

6. ND on Legoland: I would explain to him we don't mind, as it is their risk, not ours. Or not explain it, but mention they can do as they wish, we don't feel threatened by ND presence on Legoland anyway. It is a big gift, for a nation who has won most from their neutrality instead of their involvement in the Lego war. But seeing as it is primarily GoW's safety which is at risk, they are certainly free to give it to ND.
As Aeson said: it is bound to draw a couple of defenders from ND, which in the end can only be good for us.

7. Last, I would include a little bit on future plans. Just a question, and if we can continue to have a good relation as we've shown the past half year or so.

DeepO

	13-01-2005 01:08									#25
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I'm a little concerned with #1.

Right now I don't think they are allied with ND for a win. If we sound like we are accusing GoW of already working towards a joint victory with ND it could be a very insulting insinuation from their perspective.

	13-01-2005 02:12									#26
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Not to mention we have nothing to gain from it. It could come to pass that MZ will want to have the fun of sacking ND and if he does, he will want us onboard.

Last edited by vmxa1 on 13-01-2005 at 21:17

	13-01-2005 17:47									#27
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Aeson has a point - we should tread carefully in that respect. If they are to ally with ND against us it would be good to know, but let's just start with the positive approach ...

Here's a draft :

quote: The 50-50 split sounds a good starting point to us - do you have a map of the intended division? If GoW wishes to offer ND cities on Lego in GoW's half, that is your choice. It is a big gift, for a nation who has won most from their neutrality instead of their involvement in the Lego war. We would prefer for Vox not to get allocated any territory before the split. Afterwards, it would be up to the owners. Beyond Lego, GS are looking forward to continuing the good relations established between our teams over the last several months into the future. We hope GoW feels the same. (btw/fyi - I understand the outstanding balance on Computers to be 1070g.)

	13-01-2005 18:37									#28
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fine by me...

DeepO

	15-01-2005 22:23									#29
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quote: - Vox gets the Isthmus and the Hammer

Perhaps we should just agree to this or bring GoW into the free tech negotiations (if they ever happen) with Vox too.

quote: - The rest of the continent is split at the middle with the Demarcation Line being exactly half the number of tiles on each SW-NE row. In case of rows with an odd number of tiles, the Demarcation Line will be the entire middle tile so as to give each side the same sized territory.

This is fine. I don't think a few food here or there will make any difference.

quote: - No cities may be built touching the Demarcation Line, they must be built at least 1 tile away so that the initial cultural boundary fits within each side's territory. - An exception will be made for GS's city on the dyes. We have no objection to allowing this city even if it rests on "our side".

I think we should trade some tiles so that our Rubber source gets a city placed on it. This is mainly why I wouldn't disagree with the Vox issue, because this is much more important IMO.

quote: - Each side can decide what to do with their half and who to allow to colonize.

Agree.

quote: Given that ND helped us with techs for the war and they also want a share I have no objections in theory however perhaps we should insist that only GS and GoW are allowed to have anything more than defensive forces in Lego. I for one don't mind ND colonizing part of Legoland... I sure as hell don't want them militarizing it.

The problem here is what constitues "defensive" (Artillery+MI are pretty strong offensive units when massed) and that there is no economical way to determine if it is being upheld.

	15-01-2005 22:40									#30
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I have no problem with your responses. I would just tell GoW that well will split it as they want with the exception of the rubber city and we do need to have at least one Dye.

They can give ND as much land as they wish, we will give them nothing. They gave us some deals, but they got at least as good as they gave.

When push comes to shove, I don't object to some tiles cut out of the pie, but if they do it for ND, then they should for RP. RP gave cold cash and lost troops. They did what they could and were proactive.

It is just easier for both parties to give land from their pile, than to negotiate it 3 ways. The food is not so great an issue that we need to spend weeks talking about it.