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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:18
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quote:
Even in police states like former USSR, North Korea etc this kind of outrageous attack on individual privacy and freedom let alone the open hatred from the officials towards you as a foreigner would have been totally out of the question. |
No, they'd simply bug your phones, trail you with special agents and interrogate every person you spoke to.
Saying that is better than getting thoroughly checked in an airport is idiotic.
Wanting to make a huge scene over it at an airport is even more idiotic.
The policing measures are not there to humiliate and terrorize you. They're there to make you secure. That way you know that a person who carries a bomb / concealed weapon has very small chances of slipping through.
I visited the prime minister's chambers once, and even though I was an IDF soldier, responsible for Israel's security, with high security clearance, I was almost completely stripped, felt up and checked from head to toe.
It wasn't the most pleasant thing to go through, but I realize its a necessity. The Shabak person who checked me was very nice about it and even joked a little.
I could have been a ***** and say I'm humiliated and hurt and I don't like men touching me and all sorts of stuff.
But its required to keep people safe.
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laurentius
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Helsinki, Finland
Jun 2001
time: 07:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Winston
laurentius,
Here
Allow 15 seconds for page to load... |
Oh not at all, you see theres the button you can click that automatically forwds you to the desired destination. And completely without the wait too!
Anyway, uh....what can I say. Okay I obviously didnt see the symbolism behing Oerdins magic number. Still as a reply to a longish post such as mine it really bears the marks of a GODWINS LAW. What exactly do those hijackings have to do with all this. As other people such as Chemical Ollie suggested it is still easy to blow up a plane. All you need is the surprise factor and some imagination...
To follow Winstons and Oerdins logic there should be complete security checks in railway stations as well because of the Madrid Bombings. To further follow this logic the checks should be done before the people enter the station, or any crowded place. Hell, security "groping" should be done to you everytime you get out of your house, this way everyone can be sure you dont have a bomb in your backpack.
So lets face it, if someone really wants to kill people, there is no way of preventing it. We just have to face the possibility of death every time we wake up. Not to lose you mind, its better to forget this undesired prospect and accept the fact that sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.
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laurentius
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Helsinki, Finland
Jun 2001
time: 07:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov
quote:
Even in police states like former USSR, North Korea etc this kind of outrageous attack on individual privacy and freedom let alone the open hatred from the officials towards you as a foreigner would have been totally out of the question. |
No, they'd simply bug your phones, trail you with special agents and interrogate every person you spoke to.
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You missed my point. Here I tried to say that even the most oppressive and totalitarian police states in the history honoured foreign citizens rights. I'm not going to start about their own citizens rights or people spying at you. A physical violation is a completely different thing from a phone tapping.
quote:
Saying that is better than getting thoroughly checked in an airport is idiotic.
Wanting to make a huge scene over it at an airport is even more idiotic. |
You know sometimes its good to make a scene out of these things. We have a right to protest, how else would our voice be heard?
quote:
The policing measures are not there to humiliate and terrorize you. They're there to make you secure. That way you know that a person who carries a bomb / concealed weapon has very small chances of slipping through. |
I disagree. Chemical Ollie just provided excellent examples of non conventional ways of smuggling explosives into a plane. Surely in the Mossad/FSB/CIA people are trained to smuggle all kinds of stuff through security checks.
quote:
I visited the prime minister's chambers once, and even though I was an IDF soldier, responsible for Israel's security, with high security clearance, I was almost completely stripped, felt up and checked from head to toe.
It wasn't the most pleasant thing to go through, but I realize its a necessity. The Shabak person who checked me was very nice about it and even joked a little.
I could have been a ***** and say I'm humiliated and hurt and I don't like men touching me and all sorts of stuff.
But its required to keep people safe. |
Thats hardly the same thing as going to an aeroplane is it. And besides its probably a standard in most countries, and especially important in your country.
Last edited by laurentius on 27-11-2004 at 18:26
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:18
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quote:
You missed my point. Here I tried to say that even the most oppressive and totalitarian police states in the history honoured foreign citizens rights. I'm not going to start about their own citizens rights or people spying at you. A physical violation is a completely different thing from a phone tapping. |
I'd rather be "physically violated", as you call it.
In any case, I was under the impression the story didn't mention foreigners being violated as they come in, but of people boarding flights in the US.
quote:
You know sometimes its good to make a scene out of these things. We have a right to protest, how else would our voice be heard?
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Its rarely good or mature to make a scene out of things.
You want to protest - write a letter, publish an article, stage a protest. Complain to the manager.
The person that checks you is doing his job. No reason to give him an especially bad day.
don't throw a scene, cause you'll just be jailed or something.
Its like when you're stopped by a police officer for a routine liscence / alcohol check, and then you throw a scene - "you're just checking me cause I'm foreign / black / muslim / jewish!".
quote:
I disagree. Chemical Ollie just provided excellent examples of non conventional ways of smuggling explosives into a plane. ... |
AFAIK most terrorists are not very well trained to make very clever bombs and hide them very well.
In any case, the bombs always take up space and have to be hidden somewhere!
Searching for them doesn't give a 100% protection, but it assures 95% protection. Which is always better than hoping no terrorist attacks us today, which seems was the usual line of defence until 9/11.
quote:
Thats hardly the same thing as going to an aeroplane is it. And besides its probably a standard in most countries, and especially important in your country. |
Yes, but my point was that I was undergoing a very intensive check and it wasn't that very bad.
My point is that such tests are what you make them to be.
Of course its annoying if you're tired and want to go board the plane / go home / whatever.
For instance, in Israel you have to be tested by a metal detector and open your bag when you go into places like malls, movie theaters, locations with large crowds and so on.
Sure its a bother and sometimes not so pleasant.
I once had to open my bag several times, right after I bought kinky accessories. I thought it would be wierd. And guess what? The security guy didn't care, and didn't start pointing a laughing. He had a freaking long day and all he cared was that I didn't have a bomb in my posession.
And, sadly, the rest of the world has become less secure, and thorough checks are required in Australia and America too.
Its a bother, but its only humiliating if you think of it that way.
Of course I'd be offended if some jerk on the street would feel me up.
But the security guy isn't some jerk. He has a job. He might as well be the first one to get killed if a terrorist comes. I don't think he has a power rush or that he enjoys touching strangers all day long.
You should try to view things from a different perspective.
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Elok
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Land of Ramen Dragons
Mar 2003
time: 00:18
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Jeez, I thought my lame witticism would be sufficient. Turns out people ignored it. Alas. Well, here are some fun arguments against racial profiling:
-It further cements the image, used for recruiting purposes by aQ to great effect, of America Waging a War on Islam.
-It ain't that effective. I've met plenty of Arabs who could easily pass for white (I know a girl who dyes her hair and looks eerily like Bridget Fonda's character from Jackie Brown, only with a light tan), and plenty of Muslims aren't Arabs anyway. If they can put the effort into planning simultaneous hijackings, they can probably manage a decent disguise. And even a stupid Nigerian 419 con artist can get a fake ID good enough to fool airport security if he feels like making the effort. So much for country of origin. Get real.
-While we're at it, the vast majority of the Arabs I've met were Antiochian Orthodox, not Muslim. And I've met hundreds. Yes, the majority are Muslim, but that's not sufficient reason to harass all my friends if you ask me.
-Oh, and Bush actually got one thing right: the vast majority of Muslims are not suicidal fanatics. Our buddies in al Qaeda are the far lunatic fringe of the faith, comparable to the KKK's place within Christianity. So potential terrorists are maybe, what, .01% of the Arabs who get on a plane in the U.S.?
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Chemical Ollie
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Bored of this board
Jan 2002
time: 06:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov
quote:
I disagree. Chemical Ollie just provided excellent examples of non conventional ways of smuggling explosives into a plane. ... |
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AFAIK most terrorists are not very well trained to make very clever bombs and hide them very well.
In any case, the bombs always take up space and have to be hidden somewhere! ---
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That's a very arrogant and lazy attitude. Not what I expected from a member of Israel's armed forces.
It is very dangerous to underestimate your enemy. The Lockerbie bomb that killed my neighbour, who's parents are living 500 meters from where I sit, was clever enough. A few hundred grams of explosives hidden inside a radio killed several hundred people. Hundreds of tonnes of the similar stuff has gone off the map in Iraq, thanks to USA.
The same explosives could be hidden inside bottles of perfume, shaving foam or whatever. The detonators could be hidden inside balltip pen ink reservoirs, AAA batteries or whatever, then transferred to the bomb before blowing it, as you do on regular hand grenades. If they can make fake Rolex watches for 10 dollars, or fake dollar bills that pass most optical-mechanical tests, they can surely make bombs disguised as anything. Your fantasy is the only limitation - don't underestimate them!
Last edited by Chemical Ollie on 28-11-2004 at 03:43
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27-11-2004 06:13
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