03-12-2004 22:54									#421
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Of course, the biggest "class" distinction will be party members vs. non-party members, and/or former pigdogs vs. the rest. -=Vel=-

Like I said the differences fade away.

	03-12-2004 22:59									#422
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Go on and believe this if you wish. I don't care to debate it.

So would you dispute that strong majority of people will most often act in their self-interest ( within certain perceived moral boundaries-- ie its in my interest to have more money but I don't mug the little old lady, even in circumstances where I know I will never be caught) ?

I more often see people subjugating their self-interest to others in smaller communities-- even without any idea that a favor will be returned

	03-12-2004 23:00									#423
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LOL Che! True, true!

And Kid....yes, I suppose they will. Especially with a little help, right?

Maybe make a few of those dissenters vanish? Ahhh, but we're focusing on the economics, so I shall go no farther.

-=Vel=-

	03-12-2004 23:01									#424
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber People in general usually act in their own self interest regarless of the economic system. Some people act in the interest of others frequently in instances where it does not harm their own self interest. A smaller number of people will act in the interest of others even when it is directly contrary to their self-interest ( ie giving away money anonomously, acts of herosim at risk to your own life) I think all of these things are true regardless of economic system but can vary culturally or by size of community. I believe smaller groups will more often act communally or in the groups interest. As groups get larger, there is more of a disconnect between the person'r self interest and the group interest so when Kid talks about worldwide communism, I see a state so far away and so divorced from the average person's perception of their self-interest that getting as much from and giving as little to, the state will be common

I'm more community centered than you think. I just don't want communities to have to compete with each other to the extent that some communities will suffer.

	03-12-2004 23:03									#425
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Well and good! To be community oriented is a good thing.

I too, am community oriented, but here's the difference.

I believe that *I* know what is best for me, better than the community does.

Apparently, you do not.

If you wish to trust your fate to others, you feel free.

The problem is that communism decrees that it must be all-inclusive, which means that there's no room for dissenters like me (where "dissention" in this case, means not wanting to have the whole of my life dictated to me by "the community" (or more practically, by the power-elites OF the community)

-=Vel=-

	03-12-2004 23:06									#426
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber So would you dispute that strong majority of people will most often act in their self-interest ( within certain perceived moral boundaries-- ie its in my interest to have more money but I don't mug the little old lady, even in circumstances where I know I will never be caught) ? I more often see people subjugating their self-interest to others in smaller communities-- even without any idea that a favor will be returned

I think that now the majority of people behave in their self-interest primarily, but because they are rewarded for doing so, and punished for not doing so. I think that people want to work together for a common goal, but are prevented from doing so sometimes.

	03-12-2004 23:08									#427
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Why do you believe that the two are mutually exclusive? That is to say, why can it not be IN my best interest to help you? I can think of many specific instances where this is the case, and inside the framework of a capitalist society, I can think of many more.

-=Vel=-

	03-12-2004 23:09									#428
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx LOL Che! True, true! And Kid....yes, I suppose they will. Especially with a little help, right?

I will or will not debate you for my own enjoyment or displeasure. If I don't find it pleasurable, you will have to make your own points without mine to contrast.

	03-12-2004 23:10									#429
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Ahhh, you know you luv me...

-=Vel=-

	03-12-2004 23:17									#430
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx The steel gauntlet days are gone.

You think so? Not in most of the world, and not even totally in the U.S. We may not live in a police state, but even in the 19th Century, we didn't. That doesn't mean the cops don't get medieval on strikers, that workers aren't killed by their bosses and live and die in inhumane conditions. I'm not going to say you're naive, cuz I know you aren't, but you're ignorant about the conditions some people in this contry labor under.

quote: If they return, we'll fight them.

Then why aren't you? We could use your help, even if you aren't a commie. Most people in the labor movement aren't.

quote: Utopic societies all have one thing in common. They look FANTASTIC on paper....

Describe the soiety Marx envisioned please.

quote: Capitalism has raised the standard of living for more people, and more quickly than communism ever dreamt of.

This is historically inaccurate. The fastest period of growth in history was in the USSR from 1930 - 1940. Capitalism took hundreds of years and two of the worst wars in human history, and the threat of communist revolution to finally bring about a decent standard of living for a section of those who live under it. In the mean time, it left a wake of bloody, broken bodies rivaled only by the Black Death.

quote: So far, about the only thing it has brought is death, and lots of it.

Again, factually incorrect. Even in brutish countries like China, it brought about a massive rise in the standard of living, and halted the cycle of famine that killed millions upon millions of Chinese every other year. Even with the twenty million who died in the Great Leap Forward, Communism in China still has a net positive of lives saved versus lives taken.

quote: And yes, the bloody legacy and dictatorial nature of communism IS relevant to the discussion, because your "kinder, gentler" brand is a direct descendant, and in fact, is the ONLY form of communism the world has seen in practice. You must face not only the opposition of a robust and thriving rival system, but the ghosts of your ancestors. -=Vel=-

Not it's not relevent in a discussion of what Marx thought or his relevence to today's capitalism. It's something you always throw out in order to derail a discussion about the logic of Marxism. Whenever I start making sense and seeming reasonable, out comes "MURDERER!" I didn't start the discussion by saying, well capitalism has killed hundreds of millions of people, so it's obviously a completely immoral and totally bankrupt system. No system is morally clean. No system doesn't have oceans of blood on its hands.

	03-12-2004 23:25									#431
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Like I said the differences fade away.

I never know how to take these little flip comments. Since difference among people rarely fade, does this mean contemplation of the "solutions" that Vel hints at?

While I want to stick to the economics I am uncomfortable at any hint that personal freedoms would have to be severely constrained in the name of implementing an economic system

	03-12-2004 23:29									#432
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Che, I live in the South. Just up the road from you. This was the home of slave labor and sweat shop style mills.

I KNOW about poverty. I grew up poor. What I have, I built myself, and to this day, I live in one of the poorest states in the Union.

Wanna know what I don't see?

I don't see slave shacks. I don't see sweat shops. I don't see any evidence of the steel gauntlet, even in one of the poorest states in the union.

If it ain't true here, and we're at the bottom, it follows that it prolly aint' true elsewhere, where the grass is greener. Not to say that it doesn't exist at all, but to put it in its proper context.

As to why I'm not helping....Labor doesn't look like it needs help. If I feel the pinch, or if my friends and family do, I'll saddle up...till then, it's not my fight. Very distant to me.

Marxist society: You described it yourself, with two words...socialist utopia. MmmmHmmm. But it didn't translate from paper to the real world so well.

re: capitalism and wealth. I didn't say "fastest growth" I said "raised the standard of living for more people" - since we're comparing economic systems, and in order to keep it apples to apples, and since economic systems measure growth in money, lets count millionaires. Tell me, how many millionaires did communism create last year?

How many did capitalism create?

How many have each created in total?

re: communism and death: You're right...it also brought about the virtual enslavement of nearly a third of the earth's population....not that THAT point is much to brag about either, but yes, it is another of communism's accomplishments.

re: communism and the shadows of their forefathers - I'm sorry to say, Che, that the current system that is predominant in the world is pretty well entrenched. It will be difficult to convince people who are thriving in the capitalist societies of the world to make the switch, ESPECIALLY in light of the fact that the only forms of communism we have ever seen trotted out have been bloodfests.

If you want to convince us, you have to acknowledge this, and explain both how and why you are different.

I'd say that makes it particularly relevant.

Pivotal, even.

-=Vel=-

	03-12-2004 23:33									#433
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber I never know how to take these little flip comments. Since difference among people rarely fade, does this mean contemplation of the "solutions" that Vel hints at?

No. You should never take Vel's version of my ideas as any worth considering as truth. That should be obvious. Just take my words literally in this case.

	03-12-2004 23:35									#434
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One thing that baffels me is that Kid (and other communists) seems to believe that your position in a modern capitalist society is cemented in place. That is, if you're a poor worker, you will always be a poor worker and that the same handful of greedy capitalist devils will always run everything and exploit everyone for their own advantage. The reality as most of us see it is that you may start off as a poor worker, but then you too can become a capitalist. If your a more altruistic, community oriented person as a poor worker, why wouldn't you remain so as a capitalist? When you start your own small business or whatnot, are you all of a sudden going to look at putting your employees into serf-like bondage?

	03-12-2004 23:36									#435
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Kid, my "version" of your ideas injects at least a tiny bit of reality into the system. In my "version" the people you put in charge act like people. In my "version," the economy behaves exactly as it would if implemented. Near-total paralysis, horrible inefficiency, and a burgeoning black market (not to mention the enslavement of every living being under the system).

If it offends your sensibilities, try a new ideology...

-=Vel=-

	03-12-2004 23:37									#436
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Che, I live in the South. Just up the road from you. This was the home of slave labor and sweat shop style mills. I KNOW about poverty. I grew up poor. What I have, I built myself, and to this day, I live in one of the poorest states in the Union. Wanna know what I don't see? I don't see slave shacks. I don't see sweat shops. I don't see any evidence of the steel gauntlet, even in one of the poorest states in the union.

Do you think it gets publicized in the media? Just a few years back, a garment factory in North Carloina caught fire and killed a number of workers who were trapped inside because management had changed the fire exits shut to keep workers from sneaking off on smoke breaks. Look up Delta Pride catfish. Look up the current condition of meatpackers in the U.S. Read up on McWayne Inc. in Birmingham, AL. Sweatshops are alive and well in the U.S.

	03-12-2004 23:37									#437
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Because, Flubber, we're all atomatons, who will automatically seek to enslave all those beneath us, if we can.

You missed that memo?

-=Vel=-

	03-12-2004 23:38									#438
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I'm not going to say you're naive, cuz I know you aren't, but you're ignorant about the conditions some people in this contry labor under.

Don't go easy on him. He needs you to shatter his fragile eggshell mind.

	03-12-2004 23:41									#439
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*sigh*

Yes Che...as you say, no system is without blood on its hands.

Remember when New York City had "sweat shop row" - scores upon scores of sweat shops in a row?

Where are they today?

Gone?

Amazing....

Does this mean that all are gone everywhere?

Hardly.

Does this mean that the power of the worker has increased to the point where they are unlikely in the extreme?

Yes. And as proof, they make up such a miniscule part of the economy these days that they barely even register on the radar, and THAT is my point.

The days are gone.

Finding occassional abusers who get shut down and put out of business...yeah...that's going to happen.

Rather akin to finding occassional workers in soviet russia who actually broke production quotas. Not the norm, but it happened sometimes.

-=Vel=-

	03-12-2004 23:41									#440
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You just say that so that when I become a drooling idiot, you can start exploiting me....

-=Vel=-

	03-12-2004 23:43									#441
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki One thing that baffels me is that Kid (and other communists) seems to believe that your position in a modern capitalist society is cemented in place.

By necessity, most people have to remain workers. Everyone can't be capitalists. So to that extent, it's true. The chief indictment of Marxism against capitalism, however, is not the plight of the poor worker, but the fact that the society is irrational and chaotic and that every 7-10 years it falls down, throwing millions out of work, ruining lives. The reason for this downturn is not because society is unproductive, but illogically, because society is so productive that not all of the product can be sold. That's insanity and its the result simply of the relations between human beings, and not cause by a natural catastrophe or a war.

Think about how irrational that is, society falls down because it is doing to well.

	03-12-2004 23:43									#442
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Because, Flubber, we're all atomatons, who will automatically seek to enslave all those beneath us, if we can. You missed that memo? -=Vel=-

I don't need a memo. Lawyers automatically enslave those beneath us. In fact we require a year of indentured servitude ( the articling year) before we allow new lawyers to pass the bar.

Actually I think I may be being EXPLOITED. My law firm actually collects more from my clients than I get paid !!

	03-12-2004 23:46									#443
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The boom-bust cycle is indeed a valid criticism of capitalism. I wonder however if:

1) That cycle can be managed/mitigated with the economy still largely capitalistic

2) If communists really could manage to prevent boom/bust without inducing neverending bust. Stability is nice... if the condition you want to remain stable is nice. Stability of condition when the condition sucks is not desireable, clearly.

-Arrian

	03-12-2004 23:48									#444
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Flubber!

Che - in Marx's day, there was no social safety net, and yes, the cyclical unemployment was harsh.

Not nearly as harsh nowadays, and it hardly ruins lives. There's help out there and available. I know...I've had to make use of it a time or three.

I've been corporate downsized out of almost every job I ever had, but it has not ruined my life.

Nor will it.

Again, in Marx's day, yep...lots to be angry about.

That's not the way the game is played anymore.

The indictment doesn't hold.

-=Vel=-

	03-12-2004 23:48									#445
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Capitalism is much like democracy to me-- In each case there are flaws but I still prefer it to the alternatives.

Oh and I like the fact that there are social safeguards-- and not to protect me from revolution-- its simply I like the idea that there is a minimum standard of support that our community will try to ensure everyone has. I like that . . . its just when you try to make everyone the same that I object

	03-12-2004 23:51									#446
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I as well have been downsized twice in 3 years -- thats life!! -- you dust yourself off and then go find another job-- its disappointing, even heartbreaking but there is opportunity here and I am good at what I do.

	03-12-2004 23:57									#447
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Remember when New York City had "sweat shop row" - scores upon scores of sweat shops in a row? Where are they today? Gone? Does this mean that all are gone everywhere? Hardly.

Then you concede my point that the steel gauntlet isn't history, even in the West. Thank you.

quote: Does this mean that the power of the worker has increased to the point where they are unlikely in the extreme?

Most of our meat, poultry, and fish are still produced in sweatshop conditions. Meat packing is still one of the most dangerous jobs there is, and it is worse that it was thirty years ago. Fast Food Nation is a fascinating book for all kinds of reasons (just learning about how McDonalds and Carls Jr were built is really interesting stuff). There's quite a bit of material in there on how our food is produced. That doesn't even take into account the people who pick our produce. Is it like the days of The Jungle? No. Is it someplace anyone with a choice would want to work? No. And if you try and unionize, they shut the plant down and move it.

Then there are the people who cook for us. Fast food is seriously dangerous (and I'm not talking about eating it), and for what? Minimum wage? Despite conservatives myths (and I know you aren't a conservative), most min wage workers are not teenagers. Even if they were, the fact that a min wage job is supposed to be temporary doesn't come close to compensating for the injuries and loss of life.

These are both huge segments of our economy. I could go on.

quote: The days are gone.

They are not gone for everyone, not by a long shot. Outside the west, they are still the rule.

quote: Finding occassional abusers who get shut down and put out of business...yeah...that's going to happen.

The abusers tend to get slapped on the wrist with minor fines, if they get caught. I made an OSHA compliant once about a plant I once worked in, and OSHA sent the company a letter asking if it was true?!?

	03-12-2004 23:59									#448
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There is social pressure to avoid the old 19th century style boom/busts. The panicks of the 1880s, for instance, seem ludicrous now. A lot has changed since then - and I grant you, Che, that some (many?) of those changes were in part a reaction to communism. We no longer live under laisse-faire capitalism (thank goodness!). Much of the 3rd world does (and worse, due to other factors), and that's an issue to be addressed, no question.

-Arrian

	04-12-2004 00:03									#449
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The abusers tend to get slapped on the wrist with minor fines, if they get caught. I made an OSHA compliant once about a plant I once worked in, and OSHA sent the company a letter asking if it was true?!?

Having worked at a regulatory agency, they would probably have been under an obligation to seek a response to the complaint as part of any investigation.

If that is all that was done, its wrong. But an inquiry letter seeking their position is not only unsuprising, it is appropriate.

	04-12-2004 00:05									#450
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian 2) If communists really could manage to prevent boom/bust without inducing neverending bust. Stability is nice... if the condition you want to remain stable is nice. Stability of condition when the condition sucks is not desireable, clearly. -Arrian

This is the most important critique. The head of the Communist Party in Chicago once mentioned to me that it wasn't the dictatorship in the USSR that most workers in the US thought was a problem. Most people live under a dictator known as the boss. It was the lack of productivity. I would argue it was the alienating nature of the Soviet system coupled with the lack of any useful motivating facot that lead to such low productivity in the 60s, 70s and 80s. If you aren't going to threaten people with starvation and homelessness to get them to work hard, then they need to have a say and some rewards. The Soviets had neither the stick nor the carrot. We have both in the US.

What history tells us is that communism cannot work if it is not open, pluralistic, and democratic. It still might not work then. Don't know. We haven't tried it.