03-12-2004 00:36									#331
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian This, however, is why modern capitalist societies provide some form of safety net... -Arrian

Here's why I'm not for just a safety net. In your hypothetical example Berzerker helps me out when I'm down, and we assume that he doesn't pass judgement on me for needing his help, but in an actual capitalist society such people are treated as inferior, not by the law necessarily, but by those who think they are better then them because they are more financially independent.

	03-12-2004 00:39									#332
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber Vel While I agree with your approach, I am trying to show the fallacy of kid's distinctions even if we accept his premises that only work "counts". The bezerker kid island is a perfect example since we have set the scene with utopian equality at the beginning but now through work and only work, Bezerker has an asset of value, whether it be a farm or a tool or whatever. Now the question to kid is the manner in which the small two person society could allow kid to use or harvest that asset. Taking it for free means that kid is TAKING the value of Bezerker's sweating back-breaking work for NOTHING. THat HAS to be EXPLOITATION.

I'm just questioning whether eating the banana's without paying for them is really taking the fruits of his labor, since it's really not costing Berzerker anything.

	03-12-2004 00:41									#333
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber Perhaps--- we are talking kid's version of communism here. I still remember that he indicated that Mrs Flubber MUST go to work. We would not have the option for her to stay at home with baby Flubber and for us to make do as a single-income family (at the state mandated fair wage of course)

I don't think I said that she shouldn't be able to stay home with a baby. If I did I probably misread your post.

	03-12-2004 00:41									#334
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Yes taking his bananas is. He put time into getting them.

	03-12-2004 00:41									#335
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quote: Here's why I'm not for just a safety net. In your hypothetical example Berzerker helps me out when I'm down, and we assume that he doesn't pass judgement on me for needing his help, but in an actual capitalist society such people are treated as inferior, not by the law necessarily, but by those who think they are better then them because they are more financially independent.

Kid,

How we are treated under the law is the thing we can do most about. What individuals think about one another... that's tougher. Look at how hard it is to stamp out racism. We've come a long way, but it's a hard thing to fight. Changing a society's view of something takes time & effort... or a "cultural revolution."

And I don't think our culture is quite as harsh as that - what you describe sounds Victorian.

-Arrian

	03-12-2004 00:42									#336
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I have nine pages of catch up to do. The problem I have with these kid v everyone debates is that people keep saying BS stuff, like vel did about kid wanting party bosses to tell people where to live and what jobs to do. Kid is sometimes inconsistent, and that makes it a lot easier for everyone to twist what he's saying around. I don't really want to deal with that.

Either do I.

Thanks though for taking up some weight for me though.

	03-12-2004 00:43									#337
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quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse Yes taking his bananas is. He put time into getting them.

And they are going to perish anyway if I don't eat them.

	03-12-2004 00:47									#338
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious And they are going to perish anyway if I don't eat them.

Not necessarily...and they can be used in fertilizer.

	03-12-2004 00:49									#339
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I don't think I said that she shouldn't be able to stay home with a baby. If I did I probably misread your post.

Nope-- it was several threads ago but you were quite explicit in that she would have to go to work. Your reasoning was along the lines that many times both parents HAVE to go to work so she should have to as well. If you wish to change this view I would accept that, but there was no misinterpretation

	03-12-2004 00:53									#340
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious And they are going to perish anyway if I don't eat them.

Don't be obtuse. Change the example to wheat or carrots or potatoes or milk from a cow-- the specific asset is irrelevant.

The key idea is that Bezerker has created value through work-- all by himself. No one else could have any logical or moral argument that they have an entitlement to that value

	03-12-2004 00:53									#341
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Kid, How we are treated under the law is the thing we can do most about. What individuals think about one another... that's tougher. Look at how hard it is to stamp out racism. We've come a long way, but it's a hard thing to fight. Changing a society's view of something takes time & effort... or a "cultural revolution." And I don't think our culture is quite as harsh as that - what you describe sounds Victorian. -Arrian

Capitalism is the root of these problems Arrian. The prejudice against the poor has a lot to do with the self-interest of the middle class. It's not only the poor that has to struggle for survival, but the middle class are struggling too, and when you are so preoccupied with your own survival you tend to see enemies around you instead of friends.

	03-12-2004 00:54									#342
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quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse Not necessarily...and they can be used in fertilizer.

I'll pay him the price for fertilizer then.

	03-12-2004 00:57									#343
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber Nope-- it was several threads ago but you were quite explicit in that she would have to go to work. Your reasoning was along the lines that many times both parents HAVE to go to work so she should have to as well. If you wish to change this view I would accept that, but there was no misinterpretation

But I don't think you said she had a baby, but just a child. I think I just figured the child was school age. Anyway, I could careless. You don't seem concerned with what I mean, only what you want me to mean. You want me to be a ficticious character so that you can win a debate. I don't care about winning a debate. I'm just here to talk.

	03-12-2004 00:58									#344
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber Don't be obtuse. Change the example to wheat or carrots or potatoes or milk from a cow-- the specific asset is irrelevant. The key idea is that Bezerker has created value through work-- all by himself. No one else could have any logical or moral argument that they have an entitlement to that value

The question is whether Berzerker is entitled to my labor. I say he is if he has done an equal amount of labor for trade. I'm not going to work, so that he can sit around. That's not me.

	03-12-2004 01:04									#345
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Capitalism is the root of these problems Arrian. The prejudice against the poor has a lot to do with the self-interest of the middle class. It's not only the poor that has to struggle for survival, but the middle class are struggling too, and when you are so preoccupied with your own survival you tend to see enemies around you instead of friends.

I have no prejudice against the poor. I know lazy people that are rich, middle class or poor. Ditto for stupid people.



I'm sure that you will consider me prejudiced but the reality is that there are numerous means for a smart person to take themselves out of poverty if thats how they choose to apply themselves. I know people that actually see other things as more important


Oh and on the idea of prejudice due to self-interest of the middle class, I call bullcrap. Most middle class folks are in professions that see only benefits from increased wealth and an even bigger middle class. Personally I want more and more people to have more and more money so they can buy more stuff, start more businesses and on divorce, have more stuff to divide. I presume that dentists, small business owners etc etc would feel the same .. . the more people with more discretionary income, the better

	03-12-2004 01:05									#346
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That was never postulated by the example fronted.

Berz has surplus food that he WORKED to create.

Work. He sweated to make it. Are you happy?

Now it's winter and Kid's farm didn't do so hot. You have already agreed that Berz should be compensated for the food you eat from his farm. Quite literally, the fruit of his labor.

Since you don't have an issue with his compensation, where exactly is the problem again? Berz IS entitled to (some of) your labor if you wanna be entitled to (some of) his food. Simple.

-=Vel=-

	03-12-2004 01:06									#347
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I think part of Kid's problem is he seems to try and be recreating communism, without going back and learning from the "masters." In The State and Revolution, Lenin argued for the necessity of pay disparity during the period of transition from capitalism to communism, but that it should be limited to no more than five times the amount of the lowest pay scale.

I agree with what Lenin said about pay disparity, but I think 5 times is a little too much disparity. Of course, they were dealing with national communism.

quote: Fear is not so great a motivator as to produce the results that the USSR got. Only belief can do that. Fear gets people to do the bare minimum. Hell, one of the legacies of slavery still with us today is of the lazy Black person, because slaves did no more than they were told, and often shirked much of that. Fear only works wonder for as long as the adrenaline is flowing. Then you burnout.

I'm afraid. I'm afraid for my family. I worry about being able to provide for them. And so I'm a communist, because capitalism has made me afraid. It's no good for a system if the people are afraid.

	03-12-2004 01:07									#348
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious But I don't think you said she had a baby, but just a child. I think I just figured the child was school age. Anyway, I could careless. You don't seem concerned with what I mean, only what you want me to mean. You want me to be a ficticious character so that you can win a debate. I don't care about winning a debate. I'm just here to talk.

me too. I said change your position if you wish-- what does the age of the child matter anyway??

I do want to know what you mean

	03-12-2004 01:11									#349
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber me too. I said change your position if you wish-- what does the age of the child matter anyway?? I do want to know what you mean

Like Che said, we all believe differently. It's just a personal believe that women should be able to stay home (if they wish) when they have a baby, but should have to work eventually like everyone else. That doesn't mean that I'm going to be a dictator and pass down laws by decree. I want those things to be decided democratically.

	03-12-2004 01:11									#350
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I'm afraid. I'm afraid for my family. I worry about being able to provide for them. And so I'm a communist, because capitalism has made me afraid. It's no good for a system if the people are afraid.

The type of capitalsim I support has a reasonable social safety net. There are programs such that no one SHOULD go hungry or without shelter .

But in a communist system the drug addict that will take everything they are given for drugs will still be a drug addict. There are problems that the ECONOMIC system cannot fix

	03-12-2004 01:13									#351
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx That was never postulated by the example fronted. Berz has surplus food that he WORKED to create. Work. He sweated to make it. Are you happy? Now it's winter and Kid's farm didn't do so hot. You have already agreed that Berz should be compensated for the food you eat from his farm. Quite literally, the fruit of his labor. Since you don't have an issue with his compensation, where exactly is the problem again? Berz IS entitled to (some of) your labor if you wanna be entitled to (some of) his food. Simple. -=Vel=-

I don't think you're being reasonable Vel. Berzerker should fair well but not at someone elses expense. If he will be equally well off whether I eat the bananas or not, why should I have to pay for them. I don't think that's a fair trade.

	03-12-2004 01:15									#352
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Like Che said, we all believe differently. It's just a personal believe that women should be able to stay home (if they wish) when they have a baby, but should have to work eventually like everyone else. That doesn't mean that I'm going to be a dictator and pass down laws by decree. I want those things to be decided democratically.

Just so I understand does this mean we would hold a vote on the issue of whether all PEOPLE are required to work. Its not a sexist thing-- perhaps I want to stay home in a rural setting and cut wood and tend sheep or just play with the kids. Why should any society EVER determine that I can't do that?? Oh and I don't want social programs, we arwe content to live on Mrs Flubber's state mandated wage.

	03-12-2004 01:15									#353
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber The type of capitalsim I support has a reasonable social safety net. There are programs such that no one SHOULD go hungry or without shelter . But in a communist system the drug addict that will take everything they are given for drugs will still be a drug addict. There are problems that the ECONOMIC system cannot fix

I beleive that a communist system can do a better job of providing a safety net and helping drug addicts. That's just a personal believe that I have, and I see that you have a different one, which is fine.

	03-12-2004 01:17									#354
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I don't think you're being reasonable Vel. Berzerker should fair well but not at someone elses expense. If he will be equally well off whether I eat the bananas or not, why should I have to pay for them. I don't think that's a fair trade.

Just to clarify. You think its OK to take the possessions of another if in your judgement they are "equally well off without them"?

Oh and what did Bezerker do at your expense. You are on the same island with the same resources. He worked and created stuff and now you say its ok to take it??

	03-12-2004 01:20									#355
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quote: Capitalism is the root of these problems Arrian. The prejudice against the poor has a lot to do with the self-interest of the middle class. It's not only the poor that has to struggle for survival, but the middle class are struggling too, and when you are so preoccupied with your own survival you tend to see enemies around you instead of friends.

Hrm. I don't think that's so.

I think that to the extent that people "see enemies all around them" that's the result of our evolution into hunter-gatherers. We're kinda set up to be tribal - distrustful of outsiders (people not like us, or from our home area).

-Arrian

	03-12-2004 01:21									#356
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I beleive that a communist system can do a better job of providing a safety net and helping drug addicts. That's just a personal believe that I have, and I see that you have a different one, which is fine.

I see dealing with problems like drug addiction to be dependent on the specific programs aimed at drug addiction.

I just don't see that handing the drug addict more or less money will make much difference. Now the governmental system might make a difference. For example a stronger police state with greater powers of search seizure and detention could probably deal with the issue at the cost of civil liberties, but, I digress. For now I want to keep things in the realm of the economic system

	03-12-2004 01:36									#357
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I am afraid.

I fear that if a communist state were to spring into existence in the manner you describe, that the whole world would stagnate, wither, and die, but as far as your party bosses were concerned, that'd be just fine and dandy, so long as nobody was any better (or in this case, worse) off, economically.

I fear that such a "utopia" would result in nothing short of slavery, because power corrupts, and these men who you would select to head up the party and carry out the glorious revolution would taste that power, and savoring its taste, would build institutions to maintain their positions of power (as we have seen in previous renditions of this very experiment).

Having done that, dissenters would be killed, vanished, or banished, and the society's brightest stars either extinguished or driven off....all for "the greater good."

In capitalism, I have found a system of rules which rewards innovation and hard work. It allows me to create and to test my own limits, and offers protections if I fail.

I can live as I wish, go where I wish, and my life is driven by my desires.

None of this would BE in your Utopia.

-=Vel=-

	03-12-2004 02:16									#358
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Vel

I prefer to stay away from the implementation / governmental system that might be required to bring about Kid's vision since I agree it would likely to be unpalatable to me.

I prefer to look only at the economic model which I see as fundamentally flawed. Kid has admitted that he is willing to trade away incentive and innovation as a price of implementation.

	03-12-2004 02:41									#359
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Agreed, and a good approach.

Trading away incentive, innovation, and a bunch of other stuff besides.

So yes yes....onward with the solely economic aspects!

-=Vel=-

	03-12-2004 04:19									#360
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So...to continue then, looking solely at the economic aspects of our island experiment, let us examine this latest gem from Kid:

The exploitation starts with Berzerker when he sees my misfortune and decides to take advantage of it. Now seeing this why do you think he would give me free time to escape my predicament. That's a contradiction. If he's acting in his self-interest and taking advantage of my misfortune then he's not likely to give me free time.

A couple of fallacies here:

1) Kid automatically assumes that Berz's response will be to "see his misfortune and decide to take advantage of it."

How so? By charging you something less than zero for the fruits of his labor?

If I may interject myself into your island paradise (I know...there goes the neighborhood, right?! )

I too have a functioning farm, and Kid, I'll tell you what....it seems like your farm didn't do so good. I'll give you rations enough for you and your family in exchange for 2 and a half hours per day of your labor on my farm. That means I get to knock off early every day and you pick up the slack for me. I'll show you around the place, show you my system, and how I've got everything set up.

What do you say...two and a half hours of your precious labor per day to feed your family.

Do we have a deal, or no?

If no, then go talk to Berz, and see if he's offering a better deal.

Questions posed by this example:
a) do you, or don't you, in fact, have free time now?
b) am I exploiting you?
c) if so, how and why?

Fallacy #2) Berz would wish to trap you on his farm forever and never let you escape.

I don't know how Berz has his farm set up, but I can tell you that I plan on spending my 2.5 hours improving the farm, so that it takes LESS hours per day to maintain. This way, after you have gone from me, I'll STILL have free time, because my farm will produce greater yields with less time spent. I'll leave building the creature comforts to Berz for the time being, and focus on increasing my yields.

Conclusion: I WANT you to get on your feet, cos then, I can trade my surplus foods for stuff you're growing that I'm not.

Back to you, Comrade.

-=Vel=-