03-12-2004 09:03									#361
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian This, however, is why modern capitalist societies provide some form of safety net... -Arrian

Actually, they do it to preserve capitalism. The existence USSR, with all its problems, forced the capitalists to throw some crumbs to the poor. The fact that workers could seize and hold power in the world's largest country meant that if they had to do it here, they could do it here. Social reforms are a palliative to forestall revolution, nothing more. That's why as soon as the wall came down, the capitalists began attacking the social safety nets, not just in the U.S., but in the European social democracies as well.

	03-12-2004 11:38									#362
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che -

quote: I wonder how fair it is to have five or six people all hammering kid at once.

Please chime in with that when I start a thread about libertarianism and the leftwing horde swarms, that is, if you aren't in the swarm

	03-12-2004 11:41									#363
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Added to Berz's post... when Kid is so blatently wrong, you have to expect 5 or 6 people hammering him, as well.

	03-12-2004 11:43									#364
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker che - Please chime in with that when I start a thread about libertarianism and the leftwing horde swarms, that is, if you aren't in the swarm

I avoid your threads like the plague, for precisely that reason.

	03-12-2004 11:45									#365
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Actually, they do it to preserve capitalism. The existence USSR, with all its problems, forced the capitalists to throw some crumbs to the poor. The fact that workers could seize and hold power in the world's largest country meant that if they had to do it here, they could do it here. Social reforms are a palliative to forestall revolution, nothing more. That's why as soon as the wall came down, the capitalists began attacking the social safety nets, not just in the U.S., but in the European social democracies as well.

You think the workers seized and held power in the SU?

	03-12-2004 12:03									#366
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quote: I avoid your threads like the plague, for precisely that reason.

But we've had debates where I was responding to several people and you were one of them.

	03-12-2004 12:33									#367
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker You think the workers seized and held power in the SU?

Yes, and no. I was trying to keep the explanation simple. Imagine the USSR as basically a country run by the Teamsters Union. The union is a working class organization, so the workers have power, even if they don't have power over their union leaders. In order to maintain power, even just for its own benefit, the union bureaucracy still must rule in the interests of the rank and file, even as it exploits them. After all, without the union, there are no union bureaucrats.

You also have to remember that there's perception to deal with. In the 1930s, a lot of people considered the USSR to be a proletarian democracy. It seems silly to us today, but millions looked to the Soviet Union as an example, and the capitalists of the West knew it. They knew they could be replaced, and so sought to soften the sharp edges of capitalism. If you aren't in danger of starving or becomming homeless, revolution seems a lot less necessary.

	03-12-2004 12:35									#368
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker But we've had debates where I was responding to several people and you were one of them.

Rarely, and I usually only pop in at the beginning, before the thread gets overwhelmed with five different arguemtns and all of your parcing everyone's arguments into one post. Or we'll tustle a little bit in someone else's thread. In general however, I consider arguing with a libertarian to be as about as fun as banging my head into a brick wall. Well, maybe not as fun. Banging your head can give you a slightly amusing disorientation.

	03-12-2004 15:16									#369
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious The exploitation starts with Berzerker when he sees my misfortune and decides to take advantage of it. Now seeing this why do you think he would give me free time to escape my predicament. That's a contradiction. If he's acting in his self-interest and taking advantage of my misfortune then he's not likely to give me free time.

Fine , then . Berz has a change of heart , and decides that he isn't going to employ a commie who will complain about "exploitation" , even when the deal they make is and has to be mutually acceptable .

Thus , you die of starvation .




Which is preferable ? That you work after BOTH of you have agreed on fair terms , or that you die ?

	03-12-2004 15:19									#370
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I'll pay him the price for fertilizer then.

His only price for the fertiliser is thay you work for one season . What do you do ?










And just a side note , but if you are so fantastically communist , why don't you emigrate to some comie country ?

	03-12-2004 20:21									#371
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Ifind it amusing how dogged kid is in his assertion that he could simply take things created solely from Bezerker's labour, OR he could take it at a price that KID deems fair.

Since one of the base principle of Kid's theories is that labour creates all wealth then obviously any wealth that Bezerker has on their island (prior to any dealings between them) is solely a result of Bezerker's labour. Then ANY attempt by kid to appropriate Bezerker's MUST be exploitation

	03-12-2004 20:31									#372
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Che

while I can agree that the existence of communism may have helped soften the hard edges of capitalism in the past, I now see it as an ideology of decreasing relevance. Americans do not see communism as a real threat and most people view it as a discared failed form of government.

Frankly I don't see the threat of communist revolution even being a minor factor in determining social policy. Instead I see capitalist democracies that are for the most part comfortable with funding a pretty decent social safety net. .. . The US does this less well than most places.

As for any current attack on social programs, I see that as the normal pendulum effect within the spectrum of US policies. The US has moved right in the face of a "war" and I fully expect that a shift leftward will follow within the next 10 years. Social programs will be degraded for a time and then improved . .. its a pretty normal evolution.


Also I was wondering if you see the degradation of social programs in places other than the US. Here in Canada there are now talks of a pharmacare program and even some talks about a national daycare program (unlikely to happen but just the fact it is discussed is hardly an indicator that social programs are under attack)--

	03-12-2004 20:40									#373
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quote: Originally posted by aneeshm His only price for the fertiliser is thay you work for one season . What do you do ?

If that's a fair price fine. That depends on if Berzerker is trying to exploit me or just offer me a fair deal.

	03-12-2004 20:46									#374
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quote: Originally posted by aneeshm Fine , then . Berz has a change of heart , and decides that he isn't going to employ a commie who will complain about "exploitation" , even when the deal they make is and has to be mutually acceptable . Thus , you die of starvation . Which is preferable ? That you work after BOTH of you have agreed on fair terms , or that you die ?

So, I have to take the deal or die? And you call this a mutually acceptable deal?

	03-12-2004 20:54									#375
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber I see dealing with problems like drug addiction to be dependent on the specific programs aimed at drug addiction. I just don't see that handing the drug addict more or less money will make much difference. Now the governmental system might make a difference. For example a stronger police state with greater powers of search seizure and detention could probably deal with the issue at the cost of civil liberties, but, I digress. For now I want to keep things in the realm of the economic system

It's the extreme idividualism that is needed to make capitalism work that does not allow it to solve the problems like drug abuse. The attitude is to let these people suffer, because it's all their fault. Any dealing with these problems will only aim to benefit thr ruling class i.e. prisons.

	03-12-2004 20:59									#376
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Kid...aren't YOU in the best position to determine if one season's work is a fair price?

I mean...who better to make that determination?

What are you driving at, exactly? That it's not fair unless Berz just gives it to you?

-=Vel=-

	03-12-2004 20:59									#377
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber [W]hile I can agree that the existence of communism may have helped soften the hard edges of capitalism in the past, I now see it as an ideology of decreasing relevance.

Well, we may not be setting agenda's today, but my point is that we are where we are today because of the existence of the USSR and the communist "threat." Previous to our dubious sucess in the USSR, the capitalists prefered method of dealing with working class demands was the billy club and the machine gun. Once they say that we could do away with them, they decided another option was called for.

quote: Frankly I don't see the threat of communist revolution even being a minor factor in determining social policy.

Not so much today. Where we (I'm using a broad we here) have enough support to constitute a mass movement, they've pretty much watered down their message to social democracy (France, Italy, etc.).

quote: Instead I see capitalist democracies that are for the most part comfortable with funding a pretty decent social safety net. Also I was wondering if you see the degradation of social programs in places other than the US. Here in Canada there are now talks of a pharmacare program and even some talks about a national daycare program (unlikely to happen but just the fact it is discussed is hardly an indicator that social programs are under attack)--

They've been underfunding healthcare for almost a decade now, haven't they? In Germany, they've decreased the length of the holiday. In France, they're trying to take back the decrease in the work week, in the U.S., welfare "reform," etc.

	03-12-2004 21:00									#378
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And no....you have to NEGOTIATE with Berz or do without. It IS the fruit of his labor, after all. what do you see wrong with that?

-=Vel=-

	03-12-2004 21:02									#379
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber Just to clarify. You think its OK to take the possessions of another if in your judgement they are "equally well off without them"?

If I pay him for something that doesn't cost him anything then how can that be fair?

quote: Oh and what did Bezerker do at your expense. You are on the same island with the same resources. He worked and created stuff and now you say its ok to take it??

Did he buy the island to make a profit from me? Of maybe he didn't but now sees an opportunity to do so. Of course it's at my expense. If neither of us owned the island then there would be no question about me just eating the bananas.

	03-12-2004 21:10									#380
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Where is Arrian's post where he claims that the evils of capitalism are the result of primitive systems? Primitive systems are pretty peacefull in general.

	03-12-2004 21:11									#381
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Kid...he GREW the bananas with his LABOR.

According to your ideology, labor is precious.

If you don't compensate him for his labor, you are exploiting.

This is per your own rules.

It doesn't matter if he labored to create something he didn't need.

That is irrelevant, and not a part of the equation.

Why are you trying so hard to make it part of the equation now?

-=Vel=-

	03-12-2004 21:18									#382
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Kid, you need to study Marxism. Your will is strong, but arguments are confused, and your chi is weak.

	03-12-2004 21:23									#383
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara They've been underfunding healthcare for almost a decade now, haven't they? In Germany, they've decreased the length of the holiday. In France, they're trying to take back the decrease in the work week, in the U.S., welfare "reform," etc.

I don't have the numbers at my fingertips but healthcare funding has skyrocketed IIRC but it NEVER seems to meet the demands for more and more funding. Its a constant fight since there seems to be no amount of money that quenches the appetite of the health care monster. My recollection is that health care funding has been increasing in most provinces even against inflation but I will check it out

	03-12-2004 21:24									#384
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Where is Arrian's post where he claims that the evils of capitalism are the result of primitive systems? Primitive systems are pretty peacefull in general.

I posted earlier in this thread that *if* a certain mentality exists (you claimed the middle class see everyone as potential enemies because they too are struggling to get by), then it is most likely the result of our evolution as hunter-gatherer types (humans in general tend to distrust/fear outsiders - it's something we have to use education to dampen), and is thus not something you can lay at the feet of capitalism. Capitalism may exacerbate that particular human tendency with regard to financial well-being, but I do not think the tendency itself would disappear under a different economic system. It would merely manifest differently.

So I did not say that the "evils of capitalism" are the result of "primitive systems." I said we have evolved into a creature that by its nature tends towards tribalism and thus the "evil" is not really an "evil of capitalism."

-Arrian

	03-12-2004 21:28									#385
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Kid, you need to study Marxism. Your will is strong, but arguments are confused, and your chi is weak.

	03-12-2004 21:28									#386
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Questions posed by this example: a) do you, or don't you, in fact, have free time now? b) am I exploiting you? c) if so, how and why?

It's a much better deal for me of course, but let's say something happens to Berzerker's land and now you employee him too. Then what kind of deal will you give us? If you act in your own interest for profit and power not such a good one.

	03-12-2004 21:31									#387
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Kid, you need to study Marxism. Your will is strong, but arguments are confused, and your chi is weak.

Explain learned one with your fansy book learnin'.

	03-12-2004 21:35									#388
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I posted earlier in this thread that *if* a certain mentality exists (you claimed the middle class see everyone as potential enemies because they too are struggling to get by), then it is most likely the result of our evolution as hunter-gatherer types (humans in general tend to distrust/fear outsiders - it's something we have to use education to dampen), and is thus not something you can lay at the feet of capitalism. Capitalism may exacerbate that particular human tendency with regard to financial well-being, but I do not think the tendency itself would disappear under a different economic system. It would merely manifest differently. So I did not say that the "evils of capitalism" are the result of "primitive systems." I said we have evolved into a creature that by its nature tends towards tribalism and thus the "evil" is not really an "evil of capitalism." -Arrian

But hunter gatherer society members do not see each other as enemies. They compete together, but not against each other. It's the individualism of capitalism that causes conflict within society, and between societies.

	03-12-2004 21:39									#389
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If something happend to Berz's farm, then yes, I absolutely would employ him too, and both of you would recieve similar deals.

It is not in my self-interest to leave you entirely beholden to me, and why you would think so is completely alien to me.

If you are completely beholden to me, then I am REQUIRED to take care of you. That is a job I do not want.

Much preferable, IMO, would be to make use of your labor to better my own life, help you two get back on your feet, and trade with you as you do, so that we all become wealthier.

See, while you and berz are working my farm, I'll be using my free time to make the farm more efficient. Thus, when you and Berz go back to farming your own land, I'll STILL retain my free time, even in your absence. This will free me up to continue to innovate in the future, and I can trade the fruits of my innovative labor for stuff you guys are growing.

Heck, if I'm good enough at that, I might even get out of farming altogether.

-=Vel=-

	03-12-2004 21:42									#390
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But getting back to your original response to my question.

So...it's a "much better deal" for you, but do you still consider it exploitation? Why or why not?

-=Vel=-