30-11-2004 11:32									#91
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My wife says to stop talking to you, but oh well.

Look. It's this way. We are on an island. You 'own' the island, but that's only according to the society that we previously lived in. Now it's just me and you. If we lived in the same society I would 'agree' to give you some of the bananas that I picked so that I could survive and not end up in jail. BUT WE AREN'T IN THAT SOCIETY ANY MORE! There is no way I would give you any of the bananas that I picked. What do you want to know? You think I would feel some guilt? Hell no! Get over it!

	30-11-2004 12:06									#92
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quote: Look. It's this way. We are on an island. You 'own' the island, but that's only according to the society that we previously lived in.

No, it's the decree of the previous owner. I paid him, not society. Are we assuming the validity of my ownership or not? Your example depends on that. If my claim is valid, then I am the owner. If my claim is invalid, then I don't. But let's say no one owned it, a truly deserted island, and I sailed ashore and became a "squatter". I made the island my home, it becomes mine just as the plot of land on which you produced your iron mine and crops in my hypothetical. Then you arrive... Could you morally sail away in my boat because I bought that in a previous "society"?

quote: Now it's just me and you. If we lived in the same society I would 'agree' to give you some of the bananas that I picked so that I could survive and not end up in jail. BUT WE AREN'T IN THAT SOCIETY ANY MORE! There is no way I would give you any of the bananas that I picked. What do you want to know? You think I would feel some guilt? Hell no! Get over it!

I would feel guilty, I'd apologise and offer to work for what I used.

	30-11-2004 13:04									#93
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I don't care about the previous owner. Only the two of us would be on the island, unfortunately for the both of us. I would eat bananas, and you would demand payment for them, but get none. I might just kill myself though.

	30-11-2004 15:26									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Berzerker, We both believe differently when it comes to morality. Let's say we were both stranded on a deserted island. For one reason or another (it really doesn't matter the reason) you claimed ownership of the island, and told me that I would have to work for you to recieve everything that I wanted. I would just laugh at you. Your claim would mean nothing to me. You call this immoral. To me claiming the island as your own in order to get me to work for you is immoral. So lets just leave the discussion of morality out of this.

Kid , he cannot morally claim any part of the island as hsi own .

If , however , he takes a plot of land , uses whatever resources he has to attempt to grow food , and try to store it , then he can calim ownership of the land he ahs used .

Imagine that he grows some food and rears animals on that plot of land ( just an assumption , I know it's very difficult ) , whiel you decide to live off the land that is the rest of the island , by simply using the trees/fruits that grow there .

Now imagine that the season changes and your food source dries up . But Berz has enough food to last both . As he has grown it , however , eithout depriving you of the chance of doing the same , he is not morally obliged to give it to you .

But being kind at heart , he sees an oppurtinity here . He offers you the chance to work on hsi farm , for a portion of the produce . This frees him up to enhance his own standard of living . SO his lifestyle increases in quality year by year , while yours remains virtually the same .


In this situation , is Berz "exploiting" you ?

	30-11-2004 16:11									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Reviewing history does it seem to any of you that the lower wages are the more freedom we have?

Umm, no.

The Tolpuddle Martyrs:

'The labourers were arrested ostensibly for administrating unlawful oaths, but the real reason was because they were trying to protest at their already meagre wages. The labourers at Tolpuddle lived in meagre poverty on just 7 shillings a week and wanted an increase to 10 shillings, but instead the wages were cut to 6 shillings a week.

The Whig government had become alarmed at the working class discontent in the country at this time. The government and the landowners, led by James Frampton, were determined to squash the union and to control increasing outbreaks of dissent.

Six of the Tolpuddle labourers were arrested: George and James Loveless, James Brine, James Hammett, Thomas Stansfield and his son John. It was George Loveless who had established the Friendly Society of Agricultural Workers in Tolpuddle.

At their trial the judge and jury were hostile, and the six were sentenced to 7 years transportation to Australia. After the trial many public protest meetings were held and there was uproar throughout the country at this sentence, so the prisoners were hastily transported to Australia without delay.

The people were incensed at this treatment and after 250,000 people signed a petition and a procession of 30,000 people marched down Whitehall in support of the labourers, the sentences were remitted. After some delay, the the six were given a free passage home from Australia.

When finally home and free, some of the 'martyrs' settled on farms in England and four emigrated to Canada.'

http://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryU...ddleMartyrs.htm



Not only was there a growth in the number of laws in industrializing Great Britain, but there was an increase in the severity of the laws too- ostensibly aimed at protecting the property rights of the better off.

The development of 'Victorian values':

' The Penal Code was severe with almost two hundred capital offences and other punishments including transportation. This actually encouraged more serious crime as evidenced by the idiom, "I might as well be hanged for a sheep as a lamb". One of the key campaigners for an overhaul of the penal code was Sir Samuel Romilly but he fought a losing battle, as his diary shows:

17 Jan, 1813: In the House of Commons I moved for leave to bring in a Bill to repeal so much of the Act of King William as punishes with death the offence of stealing privately in a shop, warehouse or stable, goods of the value of 55... I omitted the Bills formerly brought in to take away capital punishments in the cases of stealing in dwelling-houses and on board vessels, because those Bills had excited much more opposition than that relating to shops...

26 March 1813. The Bill ... was read a third time in the Commons and passed. On the division, the numbers were, Ayes 72, Noes 34...

2 April 1813. The Bill was thrown out in the Lords today upon the second reading by a majority of 26 to 15...

After Romilly's death in 1818, his work was taken over by Sir James Mackintosh who supported Romilly's proposals for reducing the severity of the criminal law. Mackintosh took charge of similar measures. On 2 March 1819 he carried a motion against the government for a committee to consider capital punishment, by a majority of nineteen. In 1820, he introduced six bills embodying the recommendations of the committee, only three of which became law. Lord Eldon - the Lord Chancellor in Liverpool's ministry - secured an amendment to keep the death penalty for stealing to the value of more than £10, and spoke against the Bill: in his speech, Eldon said

While it appeared a harsh thing to condemn a man to death for stealing privately in a shop to the amount of 5s., the present bill did not provide sufficiently against the loss of property to an amount which, though it could not distress some, might effectually ruin many shopkeepers... The apprehension of the capital punishment had deterred many from the commission of this offence... If hereafter it should be found, that shoplifting became universal, and that many persons were reduced to misery by this crime, he hoped it would be remembered that he had suggested the consideration, whether this law which had so long existed was not wise and politic. (Parliamentary Debates, 2nd Series, vol.2, (1820) col.493)

On 21 May 1823 Mackintosh proposed nine resolutions to the house for abolishing the punishment of death in many cases. Peel opposed Mackintosh but promised to introduce some measures of the same kind. Peel opposed Mckingtosh's efforts to end the death penalty for forgery and in 1830 justified his work on penal reform while he had been Home Secretary:

When he came into office seven years before the present period, the criminal law of Great Britain exceeded in severity the criminal codes of every other part of Europe, and he had then thought it ought to be meliorated. He made it, since he had been in office, the great object of his ambition, not to set the example of meliorating this code but to follow the example set by others. He had found, however, that the habits and usages of the country were adapted to and formed on the severity of our code, and he found it necessary to proceed in the mitigation of this severity with great caution. He thought it advantageous to continue the severity of the law in its letter, but gradually to meliorate its practical application.

(The Speeches of Sir Robert Peel, vol.2. Routledge, 1853 p.162)

http://ds.dial.pipex.com/town/terra...rder/police.htm

	30-11-2004 19:47									#96
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Kid, some questions:

How is the “usage fee” charged by the state ANY different from “rent” charged by an individual? This is something I cannot seem to wrap my brain around. Both seem to acknowledge the basic “rightness” of paying to use something which you cannot rightfully claim ownership to….thus, compensation to the rightful owners of the tool.

How do you define “equality” – is it your goal to reset the world, making everyone materially equal? Is it your goal to ensure that everyone have EXACTLY the same opportunities? Or…something in the middle?

All of your posts center around the notion of doing what is fair and “equal” for all parties concerned, and that, by itself, is admirable. But your methodologies to GET to said point of equilibrium are brutish and typically Red. Disappointing.

-=Vel=-

	30-11-2004 20:34									#97
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quote: Originally posted by aneeshm But being kind at heart , he sees an oppurtinity here . He offers you the chance to work on hsi farm , for a portion of the produce . This frees him up to enhance his own standard of living . SO his lifestyle increases in quality year by year , while yours remains virtually the same . In this situation , is Berz "exploiting" you ?

Sounds like the beginning of feudalism

	30-11-2004 20:40									#98
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Molly Bloom,

Excellent post. I enjoyed it. Thank you.

	30-11-2004 20:42									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Kid, some questions: How is the “usage fee” charged by the state ANY different from “rent” charged by an individual? This is something I cannot seem to wrap my brain around. Both seem to acknowledge the basic “rightness” of paying to use something which you cannot rightfully claim ownership to….thus, compensation to the rightful owners of the tool. How do you define “equality” – is it your goal to reset the world, making everyone materially equal? Is it your goal to ensure that everyone have EXACTLY the same opportunities? Or…something in the middle? All of your posts center around the notion of doing what is fair and “equal” for all parties concerned, and that, by itself, is admirable. But your methodologies to GET to said point of equilibrium are brutish and typically Red. Disappointing. -=Vel=-

I'm just sick of discussing morality with your lot. Your morals make me sick. Do you know why? Because I am a poor man in your system. That makes me the victim. All you have to say to that is that it's my fault. Bull ****! Do you actually think that that crap is going to get me to accept your morality? If so your a dumb ass!

	30-11-2004 21:10									#100
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quote: I don't care about the previous owner.

Then why offer a hypothetical in which I buy the island from the previous owner?

	30-11-2004 21:15									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Because I am a poor man in your system. That makes me the victim.

I think this says it all. You have a total unwillingness to accept ANY personal responsibility for your own condition.

Your solution is to create a communal condition from which no one may depart. No thanks!

	30-11-2004 21:16									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber I think this says it all. You have a total unwillingness to accept ANY personal responsibility for your own condition. Your solution is to create a communal condition from which no one may depart. No thanks!

**** you!

	30-11-2004 21:19									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious All you have to say to that is that it's my fault. Bull ****! Do you actually think that that crap is going to get me to accept your morality? If so your a dumb ass!

I don't expect you to believe anything. As long as you can act within the bounds of the society in which you live, believe as you wish.

Just don't expect sympathy when you spend hours and hours each day whining about your poverty. If I were "poor" I would get another job but you seem to prefer to sit on your ass and complain about the system.

	30-11-2004 21:20									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious **** you!

Excellent reply and as well reasoned and convincing as anything you post.

	30-11-2004 21:22									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber Excellent reply and as well reasoned and convincing as anything you post.

Since you don't listen to reason it's all there is left to say.

	30-11-2004 21:34									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Since you don't listen to reason it's all there is left to say.

I have really tried to understand your point of view ( perhaps in the misguided belief that something espoused so vehemently MUST have some substance). But whenever someone tries to flesh things out by asking a detailed question, you seem to retreat into jargon and one line answers -- "exploitive", "sounds like feudalism", " thats your morality"-- then you make it personal citing your own poverty and claiming to be a victim-- when questioned on that, you get irritated. why?


Let's start basic. You claim to be poor and a victim. Assuming for the moment that you are "poor" I want to explore this victim thing

1. Are all poor people victims of the system?

2.a) If not, what makes some poor people victims and others not?
2b) If so, why are they victims of the system? For example, a man inherits millions and wastes it all gambling and on drugs. A victim of addictions I'll accept but how is this person a victim of the economic system?

I'll stop here because your answers would determine further questions.

	30-11-2004 21:36									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber I have really tried to understand your point of view ( perhaps in the misguided belief that something espoused so vehemently MUST have some substance). But whenever someone tries to flesh things out by asking a detailed question, you seem to retreat into jargon and one line answers -- "exploitive", "sounds like feudalism", " thats your morality"-- then you make it personal citing your own poverty and claiming to be a victim-- when questioned on that, you get irritated. why? Let's start basic. You claim to be poor and a victim. Assuming for the moment that you are "poor" I want to explore this victim thing 1. Are all poor people victims of the system? 2.a) If not, what makes some poor people victims and others not? 2b) If so, why are they victims of the system? For example, a man inherits millions and wastes it all gambling and on drugs. A victim of addictions I'll accept but how is this person a victim of the economic system? I'll stop here because your answers would determine further questions.

Bull ****! I'm not going to explain it to you. You have already decided that it's my fault. You obviously have no respect for me. I'm done with you.

	30-11-2004 21:41									#108
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You can't just come out and call people lazy and expect them to tell you personal things. You guys are really stupid.

	30-11-2004 21:43									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Bull ****! I'm not going to explain it to you. You have already decided that it's my fault. You obviously have no respect for me. I'm done with you.

I actually have no opinion on you as a person at all. I do question the idea that a poor person is necessarily a "victim".

	30-11-2004 21:46									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber I actually have no opinion on you as a person at all. I do question the idea that a poor person is necessarily a "victim".

You are full of ****. You told me to get another job, as if I could, but am not.

	30-11-2004 21:47									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious You can't just come out and call people lazy and expect them to tell you personal things. You guys are really stupid.

You are the one that brought your personal life into this. My questions acknowledged that and then went on to the general IDEA of whether poor people are "victims". Your personal circumstances are irrelevant to the discussion.

Oh and I don't have any opinion as to whether you are "lazy" or not. I just know you spend a lot of time at the computer which I presume does nothing to better your personal situation

	30-11-2004 21:48									#112
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You can't just call people evil, stupid, exploiters, etc. and expect them to respect you, particularly when you're always crying about how victimized you are, but are repeatedly unable/unwilling to really probe your ideas. You know, critical thinking? Asking & attempting to answer difficult questions?

Flubber (and others) asks reasonable questions - not personal ones, but general ones about your ideology. You respond with either personal stuff ("I'm poor!") or personal attacks ("you guys are stupid!" "**** you!").

Damnit. I was doing so well. I feel like an addict who has fallen off the wagon. I've posted in a communist/capitalist thread started by Kid.

-Arrian

	30-11-2004 21:51									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Damnit. I was doing so well. I feel like an addict who has fallen off the wagon. I've posted in a communist/capitalist thread started by Kid. -Arrian

This is not a communist/capitalist thread *******! I'm trying to tell you guys that I'm sick of this ****. It was fun for the first couple of them. Then of course it got very old. This was a regular thread that I started that had nothing to do with communism or morality. This is the kind of crap that pisses me off. It ends up with all of you telling me how lazy I am and a cry baby. **** all of you!

	30-11-2004 21:53									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber Oh and I don't have any opinion as to whether you are "lazy" or not. I just know you spend a lot of time at the computer which I presume does nothing to better your personal situation

Ever here of multitasking *******l?! Of course not. It's too easy to pass judgement on me. **** you!

	30-11-2004 21:54									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious You are full of ****. You told me to get another job, as if I could, but am not.

Actually I told you to do nothing. I believe my words were along the lines "if I were poor I would get a job but you seem to prefer to sit on your ass and complain about the system".

The first part is accurate as I would work 2 or even 3 jobs if impoverished and in the Calgary economy with my abilities I would have every opportunity to do so.

The second part also seems accurate given the large volume of posts in which you complain about the system. I assume you are sitting as you type??

	30-11-2004 21:57									#116
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Flubber,

You are the most full of **** person that I have ever met, save for possibly Vel.

	30-11-2004 21:58									#117
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Oh, please!

You made a thread to discuss the effect of the labor supply on "freedom" (I place it in quotes because people define freedom in a wide variety of ways).

Of course there will be discussions about what "freedom" means, and inevitably people's ideologies will shine through. In your case, communism. In Beserker's, (libertarian) capitalism.

If you don't want to discuss your ideas with people who may disagree, find a communist book club or something... although you may find that they too might have different ideas.

-Arrian

	30-11-2004 22:02									#118
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Ideas yes! Morality no! Take your **** door to door, you will have to compete with the Mormans, but you might find someone desperate for your morality. As for me. No Thanx! Go away! Take this as a door slammed in your face!

	30-11-2004 22:02									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Ever here of multitasking *******l?!

Yup-- I am listening to a particularly boring conference call as we speak and getting paid to do so

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious It's too easy to pass judgement on me. **** you!

I pass no judgement and would prefer to totally avoid your personal stuff. But if you say " I am poor and I am a victim" it would be fair ball to ask why and to even challenge the assertion.

Personally, I am more interested in the idea of victimization as it related to poverty. I grew up in the poorest region in Canada and in a small town where the unemployment rate ALWAYS exceeded 20%. So I know a little about people in poorer circumstances and have witnessed the welfare cycle first hand. Having come from that background I generally reject the idea that people are incapable of changing their circumstances.

	30-11-2004 22:06									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Ideas yes! Morality no! Take your **** door to door, you will have to compete with the Mormans, but you might find someone desperate for your morality. As for me. No Thanx! Go away! Take this as a door slammed in your face!

People's ideas either come from or are heavily influenced by their ideology/morality. How the hell do you discuss ideas without discussing their foundation?

Anyway, I take it you do not wish to discuss this. You want me to go away. And I shall, else all we will do is trade insults and make Ming unhappy (bad idea).

Have a nice day...

-Arrian