01-12-2004 18:00									#181
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Kid , you haven't really answered my question .

On that island , there was a lot of land . Berz took only 0.5 % of the arable , fertile land . You had the rest of it ( 9.5 % ) if you wanted to work it . He worked on it first , and thus has a moral claim on both the land and his produce . Assuming that due to incompetence , you are not able / not willing to grow your own food . He , seeing your predicament come winter , offers you the job of workign his land in exchange for food . He has free itme to improve his standard of living , but you do not .


Is he , in this case , exploiting you ?

Last edited by aneeshm on 01-12-2004 at 18:06

	01-12-2004 20:14									#182
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Except insofar as you wanna take his stuff and force him to take care of you, eh? -=Vel=-

I don't care if you think that.

	01-12-2004 20:18									#183
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quote: Originally posted by aneeshm Kid , you haven't really answered my question . On that island , there was a lot of land . Berz took only 0.5 % of the arable , fertile land . You had the rest of it ( 9.5 % ) if you wanted to work it . He worked on it first , and thus has a moral claim on both the land and his produce . Assuming that due to incompetence , you are not able / not willing to grow your own food . He , seeing your predicament come winter , offers you the job of workign his land in exchange for food . He has free itme to improve his standard of living , but you do not . Is he , in this case , exploiting you ?

If he worked the land he deserves something for that if others benefit from his work. That's not the same thing.

Trying to take things to the extremes again, huh? Why do you do that anyway?

	01-12-2004 20:23									#184
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I'm definitely not taking anthing to an extreme . The situation described above is usually what happens when everyone starts out with equal resources . What I said above is what leads to different "classes" of people , ay you refer to them .

	01-12-2004 20:27									#185
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious If he worked the land he deserves something for that if others benefit from his work. That's not the same thing. Trying to take things to the extremes again, huh? Why do you do that anyway?

No extremes .. . its just a simple example designed to highlight principles and basic questions about your concepts such as whether people are entitled to the fruits of their labours.

Where I always find a disconnect is when a worker works hard and then converts their efforts into some asset that you would classify as a "means of production". The idea that paying people to use this asset or charging them rent for the use of it, is exploitation is a concept I just cannot accept or understand.

I just see nothing immoral in a ditchdigger saving up for a tractor and then increasing his standard of living by allowing others to use it in some form by which he profits

	01-12-2004 20:28									#186
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quote: Originally posted by aneeshm I'm definitely not taking anthing to an extreme . The situation described above is usually what happens when everyone starts out with equal resources . What I said above is what leads to different "classes" of people , ay you refer to them .

And when do people start out with equal resources?

	01-12-2004 20:32									#187
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber No extremes .. . its just a simple example designed to highlight principles and basic questions about your concepts such as whether people are entitled to the fruits of their labours. Where I always find a disconnect is when a worker works hard and then converts their efforts into some asset that you would classify as a "means of production". The idea that paying people to use this asset or charging them rent for the use of it, is exploitation is a concept I just cannot accept or understand. I just see nothing immoral in a ditchdigger saving up for a tractor and then increasing his standard of living by allowing others to use it in some form by which he profits

Because he only worked to produce the tractor. He deserves compensation for that. When others use it they deserve ALL of the fruits of their labor. Saying that the owner of the tractor should get some of the fruits of the laborer is in contradiciton to your principle. Why in the hell can't you see that?

	01-12-2004 20:32									#188
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quote: And when do people start out with equal resources?

In a theoretical communism paradise, right?

Or I am still not wanted in this discussion?

-Arrian

	01-12-2004 20:35									#189
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian In a theoretical communism paradise, right? Or I am still not wanted in this discussion? -Arrian

No. If it were a communist society no one would own the land. Depending on the society they would either share the produce no matter who worked or they would be compensated for the amount of work that each did. I propose that latter.

	01-12-2004 20:36									#190
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It's hardly a contradiction.

I have a tractor. You don't. I'm willing to let you use it, provided that you're willing to pay me a "usage fee" (since you don't like the term "rent").

Well and good. You now have a choice. You can make your life easier, pay me for the use of MY tractor, or you can use a shovel, and whine about how much harder it is. You can either use your savings OR a part of whatever you produce using my tractor to pay the usage fee. I don't care, and I'm not forcing you to do either.

I'm also not FORCING you to use my tractor. But you're sure not using it without paying the usage fee.

-=Vel=-

	01-12-2004 20:38									#191
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx It's hardly a contradiction. I have a tractor. You don't. I'm willing to let you use it, provided that you're willing to pay me a "usage fee" (since you don't like the term "rent"). -=Vel=-

Why do you deserve rent? Because of work that you do, or because you own the tractor?

	01-12-2004 20:38									#192
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious No. If it were a communist society no one would own the land. Depending on the society they would either share the produce no matter who worked or they would be compensated for the amount of work that each did. I propose that latter.

Ok, so in theory some people will still be compensated more than others, because some people will work harder (or smarter, or both) than others, right? So some people will get "rich" (comparatively).

Can people own anything? I mean, personal items, surely. But any sort of tools?

-Arrian

	01-12-2004 20:41									#193
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Why do you deserve rent? Because of work that you do, or because you own the tractor?

He worked, saved money, and bought the tractor.

Here's a question... why do you deserve to use the tractor that Vel saved for and bought?

...

However, it is my understanding that under your system the tractor would not be owned by Vel in the first place, right? The government would own it, and people would rent it (useage fee, rent, whatever. Same thing).

Who decides how many tractors are needed, which type, etc? The government, right? Those people will control... the means of production. Uh-oh...

-Arrian

	01-12-2004 20:44									#194
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Can people own anything? I mean, personal items, surely. But any sort of tools? -Arrian

In some cases it's efficient for people to own their own tools, if they use them frequently.

	01-12-2004 20:45									#195
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Usage fee, Kid...Usage fee. Not rent, remember? Same reason that the state charges one. It makes the allocation of my resource more efficient.

Also, there is the issue of what constitutes YOUR work.

Your work is the amount of work you can do.

By using MY tractor, I am an enabler. I am enabling you to do more work. Thus, as the facilitator of your greater productivity, I am entitled to a usage fee, as it creates for you, a situation where you are more productive with my tool than you were without it.

Based on the price (the amount of my usage fee) it falls to you to determine if it is "worth it" (ie, is the increased in productivity worth the fee)

Simple stuff, really.

-=Vel=-

	01-12-2004 20:47									#196
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian He worked, saved money, and bought the tractor.

And I've already said that he deserves compensation for that.

quote: Here's a question... why do you deserve to use the tractor that Vel saved for and bought?

For nothing no. But how much rent is fair compensation and how much is exploitation?

	01-12-2004 20:49									#197
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If the fee's too high, you'll balk at using it. If I want the money, I've got to make the fee low enough that you'll consider it a worthwhile tradeoff.

We'll haggle, and come to an agreement.

Happens every day.

-=Vel=-

	01-12-2004 20:50									#198
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Usage fee, Kid...Usage fee. Not rent, remember? Same reason that the state charges one. It makes the allocation of my resource more efficient. Also, there is the issue of what constitutes YOUR work. Your work is the amount of work you can do. By using MY tractor, I am an enabler. I am enabling you to do more work. Thus, as the facilitator of your greater productivity, I am entitled to a usage fee, as it creates for you, a situation where you are more productive with my tool than you were without it. Based on the price (the amount of my usage fee) it falls to you to determine if it is "worth it" (ie, is the increased in productivity worth the fee) Simple stuff, really. -=Vel=-

You aren't facilitating anything. You aren't stoping me either, but you are charging a fee. That's exploitation. And a contradiction to your principle that people should keep all the fruits of their labor, because you are taking the workers fruits.

	01-12-2004 20:52									#199
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx If the fee's too high, you'll balk at using it. If I want the money, I've got to make the fee low enough that you'll consider it a worthwhile tradeoff. We'll haggle, and come to an agreement. Happens every day. -=Vel=-

Haggle? Is that what you do when you go to rent a tool and Home Depot? Why is that fair?

	01-12-2004 20:55									#200
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Incorrect.

With my tractor, you are more productive than you are without it.

Use of my tractor facilitates the increase in your productivity.

You can save up money and buy your own tractor, yes, but in the here and now, you have an immediate need, and lack the funds to buy one outright.

You have already agreed that I deserve some compensation for your use of the tractor, so what is wrong with us haggling over the price until we are both satisfied?

Are you scared that you'll not be able to negotiate well? Remember, I WANT the usage fee, so I'm willing to deal. I don't wan to see you walk away without renting. Thus, how can you be exploited. We haggle, we BOTH agree the price is a fair one....what's the problem?

-=Vel=-

	01-12-2004 20:56									#201
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Home depot has standardized their rent rates. No haggling there.

But that was not a part of the initial debate. I am not Home depot. I have the tractor you need, and I'm willing to deal.

Pony up, and greater productivity is yours!

-=Vel=-

	01-12-2004 20:57									#202
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Plus the tractor is really represntative of an accumulation of the value of the labor that went into buying it. If it was my labor that paid for the tractor, it now sits their as a pool of accumulated labor value. You aren't saying that someone else can use this labor free of charge.

If you are, you get the silly situation where everyone parks their tractor after their individual workday is done since there is no value in allowing others to use the tractor

SO

1. either you have more tractors than you need since each person gets one
2. Or people use shovels and earn less money while tractors sit idle

So there is no advantage to buying a tractor -- you will thus achieve your goal that only government has them.

What I don't get is that government can then charge the very same usage fee that an individual cannot and thats ok with you. It seems that you don't care how much of the "value" of his work than an employee gets as long as no other INDIVIDUAL can ever profit.

Isn't that the basis of your whole ideology? A wage may be fair if paid by the state but if a capitalist paid twice the wage for the exact same work that is WRONG, BAD, EXPLOITIVE etc etc. The fact that capitalist and worker are all much better off is irrelevant if they have now deviated from your view of "equality"-- You seem to WANT a system where no one can "get ahead" of anyone else!!

	01-12-2004 20:57									#203
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And yes....I suspect you could even haggle a bit at Home depot, tho I have never tried.

If you complained that the usage fee was too high, they'd prolly bring out a manager and would work a lower rate for you. Try it and see!

-=Vel=-

	01-12-2004 21:03									#204
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx And yes....I suspect you could even haggle a bit at Home depot, tho I have never tried. If you complained that the usage fee was too high, they'd prolly bring out a manager and would work a lower rate for you. Try it and see! -=Vel=-

They do deal a little-- When I needed a rototiller during a time of lower demand ( a weekday), first you get the weekday rate and second they seem willing to let you have the thing for more hours than you pay for .. . Experiences on this may vary but the dept manager I dealt with couldn't adjust the "price" but he could let me have the thing for more hours than the price charged.

	01-12-2004 21:06									#205
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber Isn't that the basis of your whole ideology? A wage may be fair if paid by the state but if a capitalist paid twice the wage for the exact same work that is WRONG, BAD, EXPLOITIVE etc etc. The fact that capitalist and worker are all much better off is irrelevant if they have now deviated from your view of "equality"-- You seem to WANT a system where no one can "get ahead" of anyone else!!

Yes, I want a system where a class of people can't maintain their status through institutions that they create, and try to justify, only to contradict their own principles.

	01-12-2004 21:10									#206
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So....you propose to replace this system with a highly centralized, tightly controlled society which maintains its stranglehold on the populace by the institutions it creates, doling out an arbitrarily decreed "fairness" in the name of "liberty and justice and all", which contradicts its own principles.

I think I am beginning to see the light!

-=Vel=-

	01-12-2004 21:13									#207
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Yes, I want a system where a class of people can't maintain their status through institutions that they create, and try to justify, only to contradict their own principles.

I may understand your problem with maintaining status, class structure etc etc but aren't you going further and essentially saying that no matter how hard someone works, or how smart they are, you don't want them to become wealthier than others ( in cash or assets or whatever might be valued).edit- amd if you do, don't dare presume you could pass it on to someone else!!

Isn't the bottom line a society where even if we start out exactly equal, No one is permitted to better themselves and get that bigger house or better car.

Or even if they don't want those things but want to work hard for a time so they can maintain their standard of living while working less hard later, you would deny them any opportunity to invest their money( you can call it capital but really it is a value of their accumulated labor).

	01-12-2004 21:17									#208
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Seriously kid

In your society, if you and I started out exactly equal in education and starting wealth, would one of us be permitted to freely accrue more wealth than the other. Oh and by freely accrue, I include the right to pass on that wealth to whomever I choose including my children on my death.

	01-12-2004 21:20									#209
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Incorrect. With my tractor, you are more productive than you are without it. Use of my tractor facilitates the increase in your productivity.

Whatever, if you claim ownership to something you are keeping other people from using it. Letting them use it isn't facilitating anything. That's a perversion.

Anyway, renting a tool is not working, and you are taking away the fruits of someon elses labor for 'facilitating their labor' so obviously you don't believe that people should keep ALL of the fruits of their labor. Your idea that owners should be compensated for owning things is a principle of it's own and contradicts your first principle.

You keep going on and on about people deserve the fruits of their labor, as though that were your fundamental principle, when in fact your fundamental principle is that those who own tools should be compensated simply for owning them.

	01-12-2004 21:23									#210
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber I may understand your problem with maintaining status, class structure etc etc but aren't you going further and essentially saying that no matter how hard someone works, or how smart they are, you don't want them to become wealthier than others ( in cash or assets or whatever might be valued).edit- amd if you do, don't dare presume you could pass it on to someone else!! Isn't the bottom line a society where even if we start out exactly equal, No one is permitted to better themselves and get that bigger house or better car. Or even if they don't want those things but want to work hard for a time so they can maintain their standard of living while working less hard later, you would deny them any opportunity to invest their money( you can call it capital but really it is a value of their accumulated labor).

Because gaining wealth by work (call it pure work if that helps you understand the difference) and investment, are too different things. The latter how you become super wealthy at other's expense.