01-12-2004 21:28									#211
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber Seriously kid In your society, if you and I started out exactly equal in education and starting wealth, would one of us be permitted to freely accrue more wealth than the other. Oh and by freely accrue, I include the right to pass on that wealth to whomever I choose including my children on my death.

First of all your wealth and education would have nothing to do with your ability to earn more wealth, so they don't have to be equal. Secondly, do you mean save your earnings, and pass it on, sure. What you won't be able to do is save your earnings, buy a tool, and rent it out to become rich.

	01-12-2004 21:28									#212
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Because gaining wealth by work (call it pure work if that helps you understand the difference) and investment, are too different things. The latter how you become super wealthy at other's expense.

I think we are hitting a key point here. You object to people becoming wealthy!!

The at "other people's expense" part -- I call bullcrap. You would object to a capitalist paying double the going wage if the capitalist took any profit. There is no harm to other people in making DOUBLE the wages they would make without the investment. You just object to PROFIT-- strip away everything else and it comes down to you cannot accept any individual profiting from pretty much anything to do with investment-- regardless of how much the workers also profit

	01-12-2004 21:33									#213
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Bingo. Because investment isn't "work" and thus should have no value.

I knew that threads ago.

-Arrian

	01-12-2004 21:34									#214
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber I think we are hitting a key point here. You object to people becoming wealthy!! The at "other people's expense" part -- I call bullcrap. You would object to a capitalist paying double the going wage if the capitalist took any profit. There is no harm to other people in making DOUBLE the wages they would make without the investment. You just object to PROFIT-- strip away everything else and it comes down to you cannot accept any individual profiting from pretty much anything to do with investment-- regardless of how much the workers also profit

Of course I object to profit, rent and interest. Those are how you maintain your status. They make you rich and they make other people poor. Imagine a poor person who works for wages, pays rent, and because they are poor has gone in debt so they have to pay interest. Now imagine that they don't pay rent, their wages are higher, and they pay off their debt? Now imagine that they get wealthy, so they recieve rent, and interest, maybe even profit. It makes all the difference in the world. But you are mentally conditioned to place all the resonsibility on individuals for their condition. That's just ridiculous. You just ignore reality.

	01-12-2004 21:36									#215
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The tool owner does not deserve the rent for owning the tool, but for spreading the use of the tool. For purchasing the tool and making it available to others who may only have an occassional need for a tractor (and thus, who do not wish to part with their money to actually buy one), or, for people who are currently saving to buy one, but need one in the meantime.

These people could do their work without the tractor, but they recognize that the use of the tractor will make them more productive, and they jump at the chance.

End result: I get compensation for the time you are using my tractor (and another reason I deserve this compensation is because while you are using my tractor, I obviously, cannot), and you get compensation in the form of a level of productivity formerly unavailable to you.

-=Vel=-

	01-12-2004 21:37									#216
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Bingo. Because investment isn't "work" and thus should have no value. I knew that threads ago. -Arrian

Shouldn't that be blantently obvious?

	01-12-2004 21:39									#217
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No. We clearly disagree about that, Kid. And we've done so several times in several threads, so I don't feel the need to go over that again. Let's agree to disagree on that.

Furthermore, even if I grant you that point (which I do only for the sake of the discussion), there remains a problem.

Without investment, not much will happen economically (at least that's my take on it).

Would you have the government fill the void?

-Arrian

	01-12-2004 21:39									#218
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx The tool owner does not deserve the rent for owning the tool, but for spreading the use of the tool. For purchasing the tool and making it available to others who may only have an occassional need for a tractor (and thus, who do not wish to part with their money to actually buy one), or, for people who are currently saving to buy one, but need one in the meantime. These people could do their work without the tractor, but they recognize that the use of the tractor will make them more productive, and they jump at the chance. End result: I get compensation for the time you are using my tractor (and another reason I deserve this compensation is because while you are using my tractor, I obviously, cannot), and you get compensation in the form of a level of productivity formerly unavailable to you. -=Vel=-

Yeah whatever. That's not compensating people for thier labor. Just the opposite. You want people to pay out of their work for you to facilitate their work, when in a morally just society they can facilitate their own labor and not have to pay for it.

	01-12-2004 21:40									#219
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quote: a morally just society they can facilitate their own labor and not have to pay for it.

HOW!?!?!

That's the key, right there. HOW?

-Arrian

	01-12-2004 21:41									#220
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian No. We clearly disagree about that, Kid. And we've done so several times in several threads, so I don't feel the need to go over that again. Let's agree to disagree on that. Furthermore, even if I grant you that point (which I do only for the sake of the discussion), there remains a problem. Without investment, not much will happen economically (at least that's my take on it). Would you have the government fill the void? -Arrian

Let me ask you this. If work is work, and investment is work, then why isn't a thing worth more when I use your tool. Why is it worth the same whether I own the tool or you do.

	01-12-2004 21:43									#221
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian HOW!?!?! That's the key, right there. HOW? -Arrian

Simple. There is no ruling class receiving payment for someone elses work, but simply for owning things.

	01-12-2004 21:44									#222
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It might be. It depends on the "thing" in question. Some tools might help you make an equally good "thing" but allow you to make MORE of them in the same time/effort. Other tools might improve quality of the item. Sometimes its both.

So it's the product of your labor that increases in value, whether it's because you can now produce 10 widgets instead of 5, or because you can produce 5 of superior quality (or 10 of superior quality - that'd be really kickass ).

-Arrian

	01-12-2004 21:44									#223
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wrong, wrong wrong!

One thing I love about arguing with Kid is that he always manages to miss even the most blatantly obvious points, and yet, magically concludes that the rest of the world just "has it wrong."



I love it!

Step at a time:

1) My labor bought the tractor.
2) If you use the tractor, I can't.
3) Since the tractor is mine, paid for by my labor, if you use it without permission, it's called theft.
4) You must compensate me both for the use of my tool (paying for the increase in your own productivity) and for the use of my time (time you spend using the tool is time I can't use it).

Anything less is morally unjust....to use your own words.

-=Vel=-

	01-12-2004 21:46									#224
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Simple. There is no ruling class receiving payment for someone elses work, but simply for owning things.

No, not simple. The removing might be simple. It's the "what then" that I'm after.

Ok, let's say all of the rich people are removed (and for the sake of argument we will leave aside all the middle class folks who own bits of stock, even though I imagine those bits add up to quite a bit of capital).

How do you come up with capital to create new endeavors? Who controls that process? And how do you avoid a new "ruling class?"

-Arrian

	01-12-2004 21:47									#225
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian It might be. It depends on the "thing" in question. Some tools might help you make an equally good "thing" but allow you to make MORE of them in the same time/effort. Other tools might improve quality of the item. Sometimes its both. So it's the product of your labor that increases in value, whether it's because you can now produce 10 widgets instead of 5, or because you can produce 5 of superior quality (or 10 of superior quality - that'd be really kickass ). -Arrian

You're not answering my question. Why is a good not more expensive, because the producer borrowed money to produce the good instead of using his own capital?

	01-12-2004 21:48									#226
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Simple. There is no ruling class receiving payment for someone elses work, but simply for owning things.

What about the government? Aren't they facilitating work? Who is building the factories? How are they getting the money to pay the salaries and buy the equipment? Taxes? If you pay taxes, are you not giving away the fruits of your labor?

I'm genuinely curious about this.

	01-12-2004 21:48									#227
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Of course I object to profit, rent and interest.

NO suprise really-- I just wondered how far it extended

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious They make you rich and they make other people poor.

1. Why do you personalize this to place me among the rich?

2. Making one person rich does not necessarily make others poor. There are many many investments that actually generate wealth . Put simply it is not a zero sum game where every dollar a capitalist gets is one less that a worker receives

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Imagine a poor person who works for wages, pays rent, and because they are poor has gone in debt so they have to pay interest.

Well-- I work for wages and pay interest (up to two years ago I paid rent) so I don't have to "imagine" doing those things

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Now imagine that they don't pay rent, their wages are higher, and they pay off their debt? Now imagine that they get wealthy, so they recieve rent, and interest, maybe even profit. It makes all the difference in the world.

Well actually that is the PLAN. My wages go up and my debt goes down . I have already stopped paying rent and instead pay a mortgage. I do at the same time receive profit on my retirement investments.

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious But you are mentally conditioned to place all the resonsibility on individuals for their condition. That's just ridiculous. You just ignore reality.

Are you trying to say that individual's are helpless to change their condiition? I reject that wholeheartedly. Most smart people that work hard get ahead PERIOD. That's reality

	01-12-2004 21:49									#228
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian How do you come up with capital to create new endeavors? Who controls that process? And how do you avoid a new "ruling class?" -Arrian

You don't come up with new capital, becuase it's not capitalism. There's no need for capital anymore, and so there's no capitalist ruling class.

	01-12-2004 21:51									#229
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious You're not answering my question. Why is a good not more expensive, because the producer borrowed money to produce the good instead of using his own capital?

I'm not sure I understand your question.

Are you trying to say that if I borrow money to start a business instead of using money I already have, that the product I sell will be the same price?

Most likely, since unless we're talking about some sort of monopolistic environment, the price is determined by the market. If I try to charge too much for it, people won't buy it.

Thus, I (the guy who borrowed the money) will have lower profits until I can pay off the loan.

-Arrian

	01-12-2004 21:53									#230
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious You don't come up with new capital, becuase it's not capitalism. There's no need for capital anymore, and so there's no capitalist ruling class.

No need for capital, eh?

Bullshit. It won't be CALLED capital, but if the people want to build a new factory to produce... say... spaceships to go colonize Mars, somebody is going to have to allocate capital (be it money, or man-hours, etc) to the project.

-Arrian

	01-12-2004 21:53									#231
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Ohhhhh! So new factories just magically materialize from the State Replicator then! I see now!

Or perhaps you mean that using the rent usage fees collected by the government, they can now fund (capitalize) new investment?

Kid, Kid, Kid....:: shakes head in amusement::

-=Vel=-

	01-12-2004 21:55									#232
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber 2. Making one person rich does not necessarily make others poor. There are many many investments that actually generate wealth . Put simply it is not a zero sum game where every dollar a capitalist gets is one less that a worker receives

But it's the work that generates the wealth, not the wealth. No it's not a zero sum game, but that don't make it fair.

quote: Well actually that is the PLAN. My wages go up and my debt goes down . I have already stopped paying rent and instead pay a mortgage. I do at the same time receive profit on my retirement investments.

Good for you. And I mean that.

quote: Are you trying to say that individual's are helpless to change their condiition? I reject that wholeheartedly. Most smart people that work hard get ahead PERIOD. That's reality

No I'm not saying that. That would be stupid. Are you saying that rent isn't a barrier to them helping themselves?

	01-12-2004 21:57									#233
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki What about the government? Aren't they facilitating work? Who is building the factories? How are they getting the money to pay the salaries and buy the equipment? Taxes? If you pay taxes, are you not giving away the fruits of your labor? I'm genuinely curious about this.

Taxes do take away from your labor. Hopefully you get something of equal value for it. Factories to work in etc.....

	01-12-2004 21:58									#234
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No...rent is a cost of doing business if you're bootstrapping (ie, just starting out).

Of course, the alternative is to kill the evil pigdog owners (entirely moral, I'm sure you'll agree), and live in their house free! WhoooHoooo!

Ahhhh the blissful life of the Commies....

-=Vel=-

	01-12-2004 21:59									#235
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Hmnmmm


So when people pay their taxes to Kidatopia's Central Government, they're.....

Not getting the full value of their labor!



Which means that you have replaced one system of exploitation with another?

And this is better because......?

	01-12-2004 21:59									#236
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Back to the tractor example-- obviously the tractor creates value

If I hire a ditchdigger, the going rate 20 kulats/hour but I am willing to pay 100 kulats/hour for a tractor. The tractor owner decides to give the tractor driver 40 kulats/hr.

The driver agrees since he doubles his pay and his work is easier.

The owner uses 20 kulats/hr for fuel and oil, assigns 20 to the repair and track replacement fund ( new tracks cost 20, 000 kulats and needs to be done every 1000 hours, applies 15 kulats to depreciation and takes 5 kulats of "profit".

Everyone wins

But instead kid would have the guy be unexploited and use a shovel for half the pay OR enter into something like the above arrangement with the government where suddenly it is not offensive

	01-12-2004 22:00									#237
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Thus, I (the guy who borrowed the money) will have lower profits until I can pay off the loan.

Exactly, but your work produces the same amount of goods. The borrowed money doesn't produce anything, because it's NOT WORK!

	01-12-2004 22:01									#238
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Taxes do take away from your labor. Hopefully you get something of equal value for it. Factories to work in etc.....

But how is that different from paying a fee to use Vel's tractor? You pay him a fee, you become more productive. You get something of at least equal value out of that transaction. In fact, you likely get something of greater value because if the usage fee you had to pay for the tractor was greater than the increase in your productivity, then it wouldn't make any sense to use the tractor. You'd be better off doing the work manually, so you wouldn't use his tractor. Or maybe you could find someone who would rent you one cheaper.

	01-12-2004 22:03									#239
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Exactly, but your work produces the same amount of goods. The borrowed money doesn't produce anything, because it's NOT WORK!

Oh, I see the point you're trying to make.

One problem with it:

Without the loan, I can't start the business at all.

-Arrian

	01-12-2004 22:05									#240
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian No need for capital, eh? Bullshit. It won't be CALLED capital, but if the people want to build a new factory to produce... say... spaceships to go colonize Mars, somebody is going to have to allocate capital (be it money, or man-hours, etc) to the project. -Arrian

It will not be necessary to save money as in a capitalist system. Man-hours will have to be coordinated to produce the 'tangible' capital, and extract the necessary resources.

Anyway. I can't afford to spend this much time in this discussion today. I have too much to do. Maybe I'll be back latter today.