02-12-2004 06:17									#271
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber You missed many. Where is the incentive to work hard, to innovate?

There's a cost to both of those things. I don't have a problem with either one of them, but there are costs to capitalism (poverty, war etc...) that I'm not willing to trade off for them.

	02-12-2004 09:46									#272
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Kid -

quote: I don't even know Kontiki, and I don't know why he knows me, or why he thinks he does. I don't care what he thinks. I'm not trying to win any popularity contests.

I know enough about him from debates to know he's fair and more sympathetic to your ideology than mine.

quote: I'm not a communist to win debates.

We've noticed

quote: I'm a real ****in blood red commie. Not one of these pinkos that want to swap spit in the shower with you. You offend me, and I don't want to have any part of you.

You called people stupid because someone allegedly accused you of being lazy. Now it looks like you're trying to justify your behavior by claiming to be bold and principled whereas when someone insults you, they're just bad people who need to be ignored.

quote: If he worked the land he deserves something for that if others benefit from his work. That's not the same thing.

I bought the land, I already worked for it. What I do with it in the future is my business whether I plan on harvesting bananas or maintaining the ascetic appeal of the island. It is the same, you just can't see the years I spent working so I could buy the island. That labor, for some weird reason, goes un-noticed by your ideology.

	02-12-2004 10:03									#273
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker I bought the land, I already worked for it. What I do with it in the future is my business whether I plan on harvesting bananas or maintaining the ascetic appeal of the island. It is the same, you just can't see the years I spent working so I could buy the island. That labor, for some weird reason, goes un-noticed by your ideology.

I don't want the island. The ownership of it is not in dispute. We're talking about the fruits of my labor, not yours.

	02-12-2004 10:22									#274
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But the fruits of your labor was wading ashore and picking my bananas, my labor was the time I spent earning money to buy the island and it's bananas. My labor is ignored under your ideology...

	02-12-2004 10:30									#275
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker My labor is ignored under your ideology...

No it's not. The question is what rights does that labor give you. Does it give you the right to take my labor or keep me from survival? I'm not against you receiving compensation, but how much? You want to be able to determine the compensation. If the compensation were fair I wouldn't mind, but the problem is that I would have to give you as many bananas as you asked for. I wouldn't have any negotiating power, because I would have no other options. That's the kind of situation where you have to use reason, and not just absolutism.

	02-12-2004 11:54									#276
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quote: No it's not. The question is what rights does that labor give you. Does it give you the right to take my labor or keep me from survival? I'm not against you receiving compensation, but how much? You want to be able to determine the compensation. If the compensation were fair I wouldn't mind, but the problem is that I would have to give you as many bananas as you asked for. I wouldn't have any negotiating power, because I would have no other options. That's the kind of situation where you have to use reason, and not just absolutism.

You wouldn't give me bananas, they're already mine. So you'd have to find a way of compensating me, probably with labor. You just said my labor is not ignored by your ideology and then explained why it is ignored - your right to my food. Now, if you think it's fair to compensate me for the food you need, then your gripe is not that my ownership of the island is "exploiting" you, but that I might charge too much. And what if you want to undercompensate me instead, are you exploiting my labor? If this potential for exploitation makes capitalism immoral, why is your ideology immune?

You're changing your argument (for the better anyway), first you claimed a right to the bananas regardless of my ownership, now I deserve compensation if it's fair. The question becomes defining what is fair and that's true for capitalism and communism. And if someone is charging an unfair price as determined by both our ideologies, our solutions differ. You'd just take what y'all wanted from the owner and kill them if they don't want to sell at your price while I'd employ peaceful means to change the owner's behavior.

	02-12-2004 12:33									#277
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker You wouldn't give me bananas, they're already mine. So you'd have to find a way of compensating me, probably with labor. You just said my labor is not ignored by your ideology and then explained why it is ignored - your right to my food. Now, if you think it's fair to compensate me for the food you need, then your gripe is not that my ownership of the island is "exploiting" you, but that I might charge too much. And what if you want to undercompensate me instead, are you exploiting my labor? If this potential for exploitation makes capitalism immoral, why is your ideology immune?

It's not immune. And I'm not saying that it would be impossible for you to receive unfair compensation within my system. I am saying that it would be fairer though. As far as our expample goes, assuming that there are plenty of bananas for both of us, I don't see how me eating bananas would cost you anything. And therefore I think that I shouldn't have to pay you for them.

quote: You're changing your argument (for the better anyway), first you claimed a right to the bananas regardless of my ownership, now I deserve compensation if it's fair. The question becomes defining what is fair and that's true for capitalism and communism. And if someone is charging an unfair price as determined by both our ideologies, our solutions differ. You'd just take what y'all wanted from the owner and kill them if they don't want to sell at your price while I'd employ peaceful means to change the owner's behavior.

Sure you would be peacefull regarding the capitalist, but what about the poor starving guy who isn't getting a fair deal, who takes a few extra bananas.

	02-12-2004 12:35									#278
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OMFG, I've seen there are "bananas", and an "island" involved. I am not touching this thread...

	02-12-2004 16:42									#279
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@ Kid - you STILL haven't satisfactorily answered my question .

Is berz exploiting you in the situation I described .

Let me take it a bit further , keeping in mind that both of you had the exact same educational qualifications when you crashed on the island .

Berz worked the land , and reared animals to the best of hsi ability , so that he could have food come winter . You didn't . Seeing that you are starving , he offers you food in place of your labour . Now , he is free to increase his standard of living , while you are not ( you spend your time working the land owned by Berz ( which he came to own because he used it , you had the same chance ) , while he spends his time building new stuff which is both useful for agriculture , and is also for day-to-day living ) .

The "compensation" he gets is a direct result of working the land ( in the form of food , which will sustain him ) . By manas of this compensation , however , he has a stranglehold on your labour , which you give him ( if you want to live ) .

Now that he has plenty of spare time , he spends it , as said before , to build useful stuff . He is the only one who has it . Now , to keep you working on his farm , he offers you some of the stuff ( which eh knows you really want ) in exchange for your labour . Because you yearn , after a long year without , for the basic comforts of life , you accept his offer . This cycle repeats , with him constantly building better things , and you buying them in exchange for labour .



Is this cycle exploitation ?

	02-12-2004 17:49									#280
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quote: Originally posted by aneeshm Is this cycle exploitation ?

Yes

	02-12-2004 18:08									#281
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Why?

You both started off exactly the same. You had the same opportunities. Everything was utopically equal.

He managed things better than you.

Should he simply give you the fruits of his labor, and in that case, are you not exploiting him? From there, where is your incentive to EVER work? I mean, Berz's farm can support you both...he has already displayed benevolence by virtue of offering you a fair trade (labor for food and basic necessities). What more would you have him do?

Or, would your solution be to kill him in classic "workers unite!" form, take his farm for yourself, and thus, gain the means to sustain yourself?

-=Vel=-

	02-12-2004 18:12									#282
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Why? You both started off exactly the same. You had the same opportunities. Everything was utopically equal. He managed things better than you. Should he simply give you the fruits of his labor, and in that case, are you not exploiting him? From there, where is your incentive to EVER work? I mean, Berz's farm can support you both...he has already displayed benevolence by virtue of offering you a fair trade (labor for food and basic necessities). What more would you have him do? Or, would your solution be to kill him in classic "workers unite!" form, take his farm for yourself, and thus, gain the means to sustain yourself? -=Vel=-

You guys don't seem to care much that people are subjected to each other's rule. Sure I owe Berzerker something, but not to be subjected to his rule. Berzerker should be obligated to allow be the opportunity to become independent, not take advantage of my misfortune.

	02-12-2004 18:16									#283
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quote: Support Apolyton quote: Originally posted by Arrian Ok, seeya later. When you return, I have another question: How will the man hours be coordinated? I mean, since you seem to be very big on fairness, surely workers will be free to choose where they work? So if the government (the people, whatever) decides to build a factory to make spaceships to go to Mars, how to you "coordinate" man hours to make that happen, without ordering people to go there and work? Incentives? If so, what? Better working conditions? Less hours? Oh, another question: you say there will be no need to save money. Will there be money at all? How will compensation be handled? -Arrian Ohhh that's too much for me to answer right now. You will have to order people where to work though, and for how long. That is of course good and bad.

...

quote: You guys don't seem to care much that people are subjected to each other's rule.

Actually, from where I'm standing it's the other way 'round.

-Arrian

	02-12-2004 18:20									#284
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Indeed!

You want the ability, with your centralized utopia to ORDER (that means "force" in case you weren't clear on it) to relocate to a location of your choosing "for the good of the people" with no care or concern for their individual desires.

And what if the people so ordered don't wanna go? What then? Gulag? Death? Maybe kidnap their families to make them more "cooperative"? Oh yes, this sounds like liberty and justice for all, doesn't it?

As to Berz's farm....I submit to you that your independence is up to you, in that case.

Watch him. Learn from him. Given the equal start, he's obviously doing something differently, so make use of the opportunity to learn from him and emulate.

Use your spare time (time you're not working for Berz) to begin to cultivate your own land.

Yes, you will be working more hours, but you will also thus, gain the independence you seek, and all without killing anyone! Woot!

-=Vel=-

	02-12-2004 18:22									#285
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Actually, from where I'm standing it's the other way 'round. -Arrian

Everyone is obligated to behave is a certain way regardless. The difference is your boss doesn't receive priviledge just because he's your boss.

	02-12-2004 18:25									#286
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx As to Berz's farm....I submit to you that your independence is up to you, in that case. Watch him. Learn from him. Given the equal start, he's obviously doing something differently, so make use of the opportunity to learn from him and emulate. Use your spare time (time you're not working for Berz) to begin to cultivate your own land. Yes, you will be working more hours, but you will also thus, gain the independence you seek, and all without killing anyone! Woot! -=Vel=-

And what if I don't have any spare time. What if Berzerker doesn't pay me enough, so I have to sell him my land for bananas.

	02-12-2004 18:26									#287
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"Sure I owe Berz something...."

All stop.

And how would you proposed to come to the reckoning of just exactly WHAT you owe him?

Perhaps by an agreement made by the both of you?

Congratulations! You just described the basic operations of the free market!

Oh...and yes, in your utopia...he would gain privledge just by being your boss. What, are you blind? Do you not see the independence lost? The power that the "boss" who does the ordering holds?

-=Vel=-

	02-12-2004 18:27									#288
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And what if I don't have any spare time. What if Berzerker doesn't pay me enough, so I have to sell him my land for bananas.

Then you negotiated poorly. Your fault. Your failing.

But you will have spare time.

All the time spent whining about how unfair it is.

That time can be put to better use....namely, to gain the very thing you complain about!

-=Vel=-

	02-12-2004 18:30									#289
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx And what if I don't have any spare time. What if Berzerker doesn't pay me enough, so I have to sell him my land for bananas. Then you negotiated poorly. Your fault. Your failing. But you will have spare time. All the time spent whining about how unfair it is. That time can be put to better use....namely, to gain the very thing you complain about! -=Vel=-

Vel,

You're about as smart as a rock. I wouldn't have any negotiating power.

	02-12-2004 18:33									#290
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel OMFG, I've seen there are "bananas", and an "island" involved. I am not touching this thread...

Advert -

The New Gilligans Island on TBS - new reality "Survivor" ripoff show with Rachel Hunter (growwwwl) and some chick from Babewatch

	02-12-2004 18:35									#291
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Oh that's the show that was on last night. I didn't watch though. Are they in bikinis a lot?

	02-12-2004 18:37									#292
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No negotiating power?!

Berz's free time is entirely dependant on your agreeing to work for him.

If he charges too high a price, you will simply go off and scratch out an existence elsewhere, and he will lose your services, or, if your need is dire, you will agree to work for him for only as long as the present crisis (ie, getting thru the winter), and then strike out on your own come spring.

Only someone who was truly as dumb as a rock would remain for longer than absolutely necessary if the price were too high, which again, would be YOUR failing, not Berz's.

Try again.

-=Vel=-

	02-12-2004 18:39									#293
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Your understanding of how the world works (or lack there of) is truly incredible.

	02-12-2004 18:42									#294
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Right now, we are not talking about "the world." We are talking about you and Berz on the island. One thing at a time.

You and Berz.

Island.

Equal start.

He made a farm, you....did something different.

Winter came and you got no food.

THAT is the world, for the purposes of the discussion at present.

You have tremendous negotiating power, in that YOU control Berz's free time. If his price is too high, you won't remain with him, and he loses that precious free time. That's your stick.

-=Vel=-

	02-12-2004 18:43									#295
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Maybe you missed the part where we're trapped on the island and my land is not productive.

	02-12-2004 18:47									#296
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Maybe you missed the whole "equal start" part?

Your land could be productive. That's up to you (notice how everything winds up being back in your court? Amazing, that....)

At the present time, in the scenario, no, you squandered your time, and your land is not bountiful. That's not quite the same as being totally non-productive, however, and with time and attention, and learning from someone who has already done it, you can MAKE it productive.

Stop being a victim, stand up for yourself, roll up your sleeves, and FIX IT!

I know...it'd be much easier to gripe, and/or kill berz and take his already working farm, but there IS another way.

-=Vel=-

	02-12-2004 18:50									#297
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incredible

	02-12-2004 18:53									#298
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I know...it really, truly is!

I don't believe I have EVER encountered anyone arguing from a point of such utter helplessness!

I'm pretty stunned!

Glad you are too!

-=Vel=-

	02-12-2004 18:53									#299
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Oh that's the show that was on last night. I didn't watch though. Are they in bikinis a lot?

They dress the contestants up as the orignal characters in costume. So Rachel and her Boobwatch counterpart are in the Movie Star evening gowns for the majority of the show. Except when they take their showers.

The Mary Ann characters are some honey though and are in skimpy bikini like outfits.

	02-12-2004 18:55									#300
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You have to know what kind of negotiating power you have if you want to make a deal, otherwise there won't be any deal. Only idiots will give you a deal that you have no power to insist upon.