01-12-2004 20:56									#31
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

basically I don't think the world is ready for a one-world government

and so will resist any efforts to make it so

Jon Miller
(sense all it really is is posturing and certain countries trying to get more power for themselves through diplomatic means)

	01-12-2004 20:57									#32
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller the point is that that is still losing sovereignty it is taking something that has only been the responsibility of the US and theoretically allowing another power to be above it Jon Miller

So I take you would agree with David Floyd then that the Nuremburg Trials had no legitimacy?

	01-12-2004 20:57									#33
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: If you're going to use rejecting Kyoto not earning the ire of anyone, I call BS. Well originally when we refused to ratify Kyoto it wasn't a big deal. It was when Bush 'unsigned' us from Kyoto that it became a big hubbub.

Totally. Clinton wouldn't have ratified but he didn't give a big FU to the world whilst not ratifying.

	01-12-2004 20:58									#34
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Well then why do you back losing soveriegnty of your state to the federal government? What about losing soveriegnty of your county to the state? Or your town to the county? I don't trust the federal government or the state to look out for my best interest... so why should I give them more soveriegnty? Same argument, no?

Because I consider myself an American first and a Virginian second.

	01-12-2004 20:58									#35
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: the point is that that is still losing sovereignty Well then why do you back losing soveriegnty of your state to the federal government? What about losing soveriegnty of your county to the state? Or your town to the county? I don't trust the federal government or the state to look out for my best interest... so why should I give them more soveriegnty? Same argument, no?

Yes and no. I don't trust the federal government to represent me as well as state, or county government. However I know I'm at least represented at the federal level in this country.

I have no representation at the UN or an ICC. I don't vote for Secretary General nor do I vote for judges of the ICC (or vote for people who appoint ICC judges). They are undemocratic institutions. Why should a democratic country give up rights to an undemocratic institution?

	01-12-2004 20:58									#36
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: well, they already hvae sovereignty

So? If they got soveriegnty they get a free pass from you?

quote: and let's face it, there are some things that we in the US think differently about than our western neighbors (same is true of african/asian/south american countries, but they are weaker than us, and less able to resist)

And there are some (A LOT, actually) things that the South thinks differently than the Northeast!

	01-12-2004 21:04									#37
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: I have no representation at the UN or an ICC. I don't vote for Secretary General nor do I vote for judges of the ICC (or vote for people who appoint ICC judges).

There was the comment about the Nuremburg trials, but yes you are represented. The federal government appoints a representative to the UN, who is under orders by the administration to vote a certain way. The ICC is an agency of the UN.

	01-12-2004 21:06									#38
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by MikeH Totally. Clinton wouldn't have ratified but he didn't give a big FU to the world whilst not ratifying.

The rest of you should have been a bit smarter. Kyoto is a horrible deal that won't ever amount to any world wide net CO2 reductions. Energy intesive industries will just move from capped countries (1st world) to uncapped countries (3rd world) where they will have even fewer enviromental laws.

If we are to gut our heavy industry I want to at least make sure it results in meaningful world wide reductions. Kyoto doesn't do that.

	01-12-2004 21:07									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Since he is a commie (well a socialist at least), I wonder why he would. Our federal government and states aren't really socialism friendly in their policies.

Yes, but this isn't necessarily connected. The fact that the government is capitalist, doesn't mean I wouldn't trust my life with it's firemen, and paramedics, for example.

	01-12-2004 21:14									#40
	Put an end to popups!

Ironic that you ask this question as we find more and more scandal in the UN and the UN continues to try to cover it up. Priceless.

	01-12-2004 21:18									#41
	Got spare money?

There are hundreds of americans who should be prosecuted in the Hague. Personnel famous from Gitmo, Abu Ghraib, Falluja etc.

Justice wont be done of course, because both the American government and its people feel that the laws dont apply to them.

	01-12-2004 21:22									#42
	Suffering from ads?

It's good that you feel outrage for putting underwear on some guy's head, but I don't see you screaming out in rage as the muslim monkeys lop off heads. Double standards rule.

	01-12-2004 21:23									#43
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: The rest of you should have been a bit smarter. Kyoto is a horrible deal that won't ever amount to any world wide net CO2 reductions. Energy intesive industries will just move from capped countries (1st world) to uncapped countries (3rd world) where they will have even fewer enviromental laws.

Did you miss the point entirely? Clinton didn't have to get it ratified, just not give a middle finger to the rest of the world by 'unsigning' it.

	01-12-2004 21:23									#44
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Well there is that.

And also the US doesn't need the ICC because in US worldview they can just take people from wherever they find them and hold them indefinitely just outside the US with no charges or proper trial.

	01-12-2004 21:27									#45
	Got spare money?

So - Americans are worried about international organisations because they are always breaking international law and don't want to be punished for it.

CASE CLOSED!

	01-12-2004 21:31									#46
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: The rest of you should have been a bit smarter. Kyoto is a horrible deal that won't ever amount to any world wide net CO2 reductions. Energy intesive industries will just move from capped countries (1st world) to uncapped countries (3rd world) where they will have even fewer enviromental laws. Did you miss the point entirely? Clinton didn't have to get it ratified, just not give a middle finger to the rest of the world by 'unsigning' it.

But that would have left the treaty open to being ratified by future congresses even if the President didn't support it. Unsigning sent a clear message that the US thought Kyoto was fatally flawed and we weren't going to agree to a treaty that left 3/4 of the world free to pollute but put strict standards on us.

	01-12-2004 21:33									#47
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by MikeH So - Americans are worried about international organisations because they are always breaking international law and don't want to be punished for it. CASE CLOSED!

More likely because "international law" is very poorly defined and is often used as a political weapon instead of an instrument of justice like it was intended to be.

	01-12-2004 21:38									#48
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by MalevolentLight It's good that you feel outrage for putting underwear on some guy's head, but I don't see you screaming out in rage as the muslim monkeys lop off heads. Double standards rule.

Dude, if you have been following any of my posts or my other internet rants you would know that I was setting up my own counter-terrorism terrorist organisation to target the terrorists that target us. Also You would know that I did scream to shoot the islamists and their leaders in the Theo van Gogh -thread. So dont come giving me that bullshit about double standards. I just expect EVERYONE to use the standards.

	01-12-2004 21:38									#49
	Put an end to popups!

quote: But that would have left the treaty open to being ratified by future congresses even if the President didn't support it. Unsigning sent a clear message that the US thought Kyoto was fatally flawed and we weren't going to agree to a treaty that left 3/4 of the world free to pollute but put strict standards on us.

Before the Bush Administration, NO Administration has unsigned a treaty! NONE. It is unprecedented.

Heaven forbid a future Senate thinks the treaty was good law.

quote: So - Americans are worried about international organisations because they are always breaking international law and don't want to be punished for it. CASE CLOSED!

Bingo

	01-12-2004 21:42									#50
	Suffering from ads?

Since international law is a bunch of crap, I don't blame them.

	01-12-2004 21:47									#51
	Re: Why do Americans have an irrational fear of international organizations? Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Nothing irrational about it, they are quite often used to destroy our sovereignty and the sovereignty of other nations. the IMF, World Bank, and WTO being examples that effect everyone.

Oh, something else, I just googled "Red Cross Condemnation Al Qaida" and got Abu-Ghraib in the first couple of hits.

	01-12-2004 22:11									#52
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Azazel Since international law is a bunch of crap, I don't blame them.

The US doesn't say that when it backs their position . We've used international law on a number of occasions to get our way.

	01-12-2004 22:13									#53
	Put an end to popups!

HYPOCRISY FOUND IN INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS, NEWS AT 10

	01-12-2004 22:14									#54
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui The US doesn't say that when it backs their position . We've used international law on a number of occasions to get our way.

Because (obviously) we don't think we're applying the parts that are crap, or applying those parts in the ways we think make them crap.

	01-12-2004 22:14									#55
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin More likely because "international law" is very poorly defined and is often used as a political weapon instead of an instrument of justice like it was intended to be.

Care to cite an instance where this has been done in the past either against the United States, or where the U.S. wasn't a key player on the side of those using it as a political weapon?

The U.S. here is objecting to the potential that it might be treated the same way it has treated other nations in the past, it seems to me. Talk about a double standard!

	01-12-2004 22:15									#56
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I see the Imran Siddiqui project is going well.

	01-12-2004 22:16									#57
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Because (obviously) we don't think we're applying the parts that are crap

Not a valid argument, since parts are applied by you selectively, i.e. sometimes they're crap, and sometimes, they're jolly good. .

	01-12-2004 22:16									#58
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov The U.S. here is objecting to the potential that it might be treated the same way it has treated other nations in the past, it seems to me.

No, legitmate fear of payback.

	01-12-2004 22:16									#59
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I see the Imran Siddiqui project is going well.

	01-12-2004 22:17									#60
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Care to cite an instance where this has been done in the past either against the United States, or where the U.S. wasn't a key player on the side of those using it as a political weapon?

It doesn't happen to us because we don't let it happen to us.