01-12-2004 19:17									#1
	Why do Americans have an irrational fear of international organizations? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I came to this question by means of studying the International Criminal Court this semester in my International Human Rights class. It really is astonishing how much hate and vitrol has been levied by the Bush Administration and ordinary Americans against a court which will have absolutely no effect on Americans, whether they be soldiers or civilians.

The ICC, for example, can only prosecute if the home country is unwilling or unable to investigate charges. Unwilling means a sham investigation in order to avoid ICC jurisdiction. If a country does any competent investigation (which the US has done for any complaint against its armed forces) the ICC can't touch it. Unable means a complete breakdown in the legal system. If the US is faced with that, it has bigger problems than the ICC having jurisdiction.

However, all you heard were complaints about how US servicemen would be subject to frivolous suits and the court may have a vendetta against the US, etc, etc. Any frivilous suit would be thrown out by the prosecutor or the Court itself. There is no way that it can be spun that the US conducts sham investigations (commies spinning conspiracy theories don't count) or that there is a complete breakdown in the legal system. But the Bush Administration is trying all that it can to break the ICC by waging full fledged attack against it.

Other threads have Americans expressing doubts on the impartiality of the Red Cross. The RED CROSS, for God's sake!

And of course, there is the old stereotype of American militia men fearing UN black helicopters coming and taking their freedoms away. Unfortunetly I think that's becoming less of a stereotype and more of reality.

What is it about Americans that has made them so damned paranoid? Is it the culture of fear which has grown up after 9/11? But part of this irrational hatred existed before then. I just can't understand it.

	01-12-2004 19:21									#2
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Do you not know anything about the ICRC? It's not the same as the humanitarian wing of the Red Cross...

	01-12-2004 19:26									#3
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EDIT: never mind

Last edited by MrFun on 01-12-2004 at 19:49

	01-12-2004 19:27									#4
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I'd suggest you save the "idiot" talk for someone else, Funsie...

	01-12-2004 19:29									#5
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The "humanitarian wing" is the major part of the International Committee of the Red Cross. They are one and the same.

	01-12-2004 19:30									#6
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun He does know what the ICRC is. He just got done describing to you what it is, you idiot.

He described the ICC. The ICRC is the International Committee of the Red Cross.

And I don't know why Americans are so paranoid. It is worrying though.

	01-12-2004 19:30									#7
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Who defines "sham investigation"? Can you provide a 100% guarantee that the ICC wont decide to prosecute an american? If you cant do that (and even if you can), why should the USA as a country abrogate the rights of american citizens by passing that power to the ICC. The USA is not the only western country with doubts about jumping on the panacea of a 'global or regional government' mentality.

	01-12-2004 19:31									#8
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Paranoia, brought on by the vitiriol directed at us from much of the world. And, as we saw in the recent election, who cares about facts?

-Arrian

	01-12-2004 19:32									#9
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Because as Imran said:

"The ICC, for example, can only prosecute if the home country is unwilling or unable to investigate charges."

So the US just has to investigate charges - not prosecute - and the ICC can't prosecute.

	01-12-2004 19:39									#10
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Jesus, do any of these links on the ICRC homepage work?

	01-12-2004 19:39									#11
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quote: Can you provide a 100% guarantee that the ICC wont decide to prosecute an american?

Yes. There is no way in Hell, under the current governmental structure of the US, that an American will be prosecuted by the ICC. None, zip, nada, zero.

quote: why should the USA as a country abrogate the rights of american citizens by passing that power to the ICC

Engaging in international crimes of genocide (for example) seem naturally to lend themselves to international jurisdiction. The US isn't abrogating rights, because the country the crimes are committed in can prosecute the American.

And it isn't just opting out. That's fine. What isn't is the attack on the ICC. Preventing approval of Bosnia peacekeeping unless the ICC made a special (discriminatory) rule saying Americans wouldn't be prosecuted. Making countries sign agreements saying they wouldn't turn over Americans or suffer sanctions (South Africa, for example, is under sanctions for refusing to sign such a crappy thing).

All for what? Americans will not be prosecuted! During the Rome conference we made sure of that.

	01-12-2004 19:49									#12
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As Imran has pointed out a couple of times, if United States can carry out legitimate investigations, what is the problem?

	01-12-2004 19:56									#13
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I've had this conversation before but aside from the uselessness of declaring war on the ICC which I agree with you on, I see no compelling reason for the US to actually support the ICC by ratifying the Rome Statute.

	01-12-2004 20:09									#14
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quote: I see no compelling reason for the US to actually support the ICC by ratifying the Rome Statute.

Which is fine, but activelly working to destroy it is something that isn't ok. Just saying we aren't going to ratify it, like we did with Kyoto would have been ok and wouldn't have earned the ire of anyone.

The best reason for signing onto the ICC is to get those that violate international law in 3rd world countries without the US having to prosecute and use up our court time. Though it depends if we really care about locking up those that violate international law in those countries (we may not).

	01-12-2004 20:11									#15
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Typically, we have good reason to mistrust international organizations. Due to widespread Anti-Americanism, along with the desire of many to "bring the US down a peg" throughout the world, there is good reason to think we might not be treated fairly in these organizations

	01-12-2004 20:14									#16
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quote: Due to widespread Anti-Americanism

Which is mostly due to American bullyism...

quote: there is good reason to think we might not be treated fairly in these organizations

No, not really. For some reason we've convinced ourselves that we won't be treated fairly in international organizations, but that fear has never come to fruition, yet we continue on.

	01-12-2004 20:17									#17
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I don't see why I should give up any more of my sovereignty to international organizations

basically, I don't trust the people of the rest of the world to look out for my best interests

Jon Miller
(currently I am thinking that I don't trust the people of the US to either...)

	01-12-2004 20:18									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Typically, we have good reason to mistrust international organizations. Due to widespread Anti-Americanism, along with the desire of many to "bring the US down a peg" throughout the world, there is good reason to think we might not be treated fairly in these organizations

Yep, there's the paranoia Imran was talking about.

So why do you have it?

	01-12-2004 20:21									#19
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Chicken and the Egg.

-Arrian

	01-12-2004 20:24									#20
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quote: Which is mostly due to American bullyism

Which is the way you like it, Imran.

	01-12-2004 20:27									#21
	Re: Why do Americans have an irrational fear of international organizations? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

It's not irrational. We don't want to give our sovereignty to others.

	01-12-2004 20:28									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Just saying we aren't going to ratify it, like we did with Kyoto would have been ok and wouldn't have earned the ire of anyone.

If you're going to use rejecting Kyoto not earning the ire of anyone, I call BS.

	01-12-2004 20:35									#23
	Re: Re: Why do Americans have an irrational fear of international organizations? Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker It's not irrational. We don't want to give our sovereignty to others.

Its not though. Did you read the OP? The ICC will only prosecute when the home country fails to investigate an offense... in which case the person is probably a war criminal anyways. Countries like the US have nothing to fear, the point of the ICC is to keep other more rogue countries in check.

	01-12-2004 20:38									#24
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the point is that that is still losing sovereignty

it is taking something that has only been the responsibility of the US and theoretically allowing another power to be above it

Jon Miller

	01-12-2004 20:49									#25
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quote: If you're going to use rejecting Kyoto not earning the ire of anyone, I call BS.

Well originally when we refused to ratify Kyoto it wasn't a big deal. It was when Bush 'unsigned' us from Kyoto that it became a big hubbub.

quote: the point is that that is still losing sovereignty

Well then why do you back losing soveriegnty of your state to the federal government? What about losing soveriegnty of your county to the state? Or your town to the county? I don't trust the federal government or the state to look out for my best interest... so why should I give them more soveriegnty? Same argument, no?

	01-12-2004 20:50									#26
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Maybe he does trust the state, and federal government?

	01-12-2004 20:51									#27
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Since he is a commie (well a socialist at least), I wonder why he would. Our federal government and states aren't really socialism friendly in their policies.

	01-12-2004 20:52									#28
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well, they already hvae sovereignty

but feel free to fight to get it back

I don't want to fight the world to get it back

and let's face it, there are some things that we in the US think differently about than our western neighbors (same is true of african/asian/south american countries, but they are weaker than us, and less able to resist)

Jon Miller

	01-12-2004 20:54									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Since he is a commie (well a socialist at least), I wonder why he would. Our federal government and states aren't really socialism friendly in their policies.

did you see the point about not trusting the people of the US?

but as far as the US is concerned, it should follow the will of it'/s people

and if I am in the minority and don't like it

I should either try to convince others, or leave to another state where I trust the people

Jon Miller
(See sig)

	01-12-2004 20:55									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Do you not know anything about the ICRC? It's not the same as the humanitarian wing of the Red Cross...