01-12-2004 23:00									#91
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quote: there is no reason that I can see to volunteerly give power to those who do not seek our best interest unless we are made to

And that's the problem. If we don't join now and steer the ship, later on we will be made to join when we aren't on top and by that time the terms will be in place and we'll have to accept them without complaint. If we get in now, we can prevent it from getting to that level and having an impact on it.

Though, for the life of me, I have no idea how giving more power to, say, the WHO, ICC, IMF, etc is really hurting the US in anyway whatsoever.

quote: the problem is that you want nations to be equal they aren't, the US is stronger than the rest so therefore it is unequal to force the US to do what a bunch of weaker nations want

This argument can be used against the US Senate by California.

	01-12-2004 23:08									#92
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but there is also a house of representatives, which give states like california more power

the UN is missing something dependent on power of the states involved (except for the SC veto which 5 hold)

also, I don't particularly like being in the same country as Alabama or Mississippi; I definitely don't want to be in the same country as Iran or Sudan or Zimbabwai

Jon Miller

	01-12-2004 23:10									#93
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quote: but there is also a house of representatives, which give states like california more power

So, you'd be ok if the UN had another House based on population?

quote: also, I don't particularly like being in the same country as Alabama or Mississippi; I definitely don't want to be in the same country as Iran or Sudan or Zimbabwai

UN is not a country. It's a super-national organization like the EU, AU, OAS, etc.

	01-12-2004 23:11									#94
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The way to remodel the organizations so that it is "fair" is to have a proportional weighting system, like the security council, or the IMF/World Bank. Unfortunately, that just leads to the US ****ing the rest of the world. Now when Burkina Faso or Belize has an equal say to the US, that just ****s the US.

So what we have is in some instances we are ****ing them, and in some instances they are ****ing us. as per Imrans suggestion we'd just be ****ing them, and they'd not be ****ing us. as per Che, they'd be ****ing us, and we'd not be ****ing them. I like my solution of we aren't ****ing them and they aren't ****ing us though.

	01-12-2004 23:17									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: but there is also a house of representatives, which give states like california more power So, you'd be ok if the UN had another House based on population? quote: also, I don't particularly like being in the same country as Alabama or Mississippi; I definitely don't want to be in the same country as Iran or Sudan or Zimbabwai UN is not a country. It's a super-national organization like the EU, AU, OAS, etc.

no, I would be ok with it if it kicked some people out, and than had a house based upon power (function of
GDP and military might)

a supernational organization is just a state of a different name, if it is getting sovereignty, than it is a government

Jon Miller
(same way as the Vatican was/is a state inside the state of other states)

	01-12-2004 23:19									#96
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quote: than had a house based upon power (function of GDP and military might)

So do you want the US House of Representatives to be proportioned based on GDP of the states? Rich people get more seats, poor get less?

quote: a supernational organization is just a state of a different name

Um, no it isn't. The UN has no direct soveriegn power over any individual anywhere.

	01-12-2004 23:19									#97
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Belize

What's good for the goose ain't always good for the gander, IMO.

like the WTO tries to encourage competition by imposing and lifting sanctions willy nilly. I am suppose to be happy that my family is out of their farm because I have to eat food grown in 3rd world countries probably loaded with pesticides and other pollutants from the near by nuclear facility that leaks because they're a freakin' 3rd world country!!! My kids should have 3 eyes because of an international organization says so.


Also, some the restrictions placed on countries is done so unfairly without regards to industry, reliability, and local dependence. That is something, local legislature should involve themselves with, and not global commities.

Similarly, the give other countries tons of money to "help" them out when instead the use that money to fund nuclear weapon research, the royal families collection of 200+ cars, and subscriptions to Playboy instead of feeding the starving within the country.

I think when world interest dictates local economies bad things are bound happen. It's why I fear the EU.

	01-12-2004 23:19									#98
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Why should a state's vote be based on GDP and military might?

	01-12-2004 23:23									#99
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quote: like the WTO tries to encourage competition by imposing and lifting sanctions willy nilly. I am suppose to be happy that my family is out of their farm because I have to eat food grown in 3rd world countries probably loaded with pesticides and other pollutants from the near by nuclear facility that leaks because they're a freakin' 3rd world country!!! My kids should have 3 eyes because of an international organization says so.

Communist bastard.

	01-12-2004 23:23									#100
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quote: I am suppose to be happy that my family is out of their farm because I have to eat food grown in 3rd world countries probably loaded with pesticides and other pollutants from the near by nuclear facility that leaks because they're a freakin' 3rd world country!!! My kids should have 3 eyes because of an international organization says so.

Um... it's the US that wants the free trade and has pushed the IMF to continue that practice. Even without the IMF, I'm sure you'd be getting the same situation because of our domestic policy.

	01-12-2004 23:23									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: than had a house based upon power (function of GDP and military might) So do you want the US House of Representatives to be proportioned based on GDP of the states? Rich people get more seats, poor get less? quote: a supernational organization is just a state of a different name Um, no it isn't. The UN has no direct soveriegn power over any individual anywhere.

the richer states generally had more population (especially in the past)

so the compromise was population base because that was easiest

in the world, population has nothing to do with the 'wealth' of the state

if the US has less sovereignty than it did before, than the UN must have more, so it is a state (as in having sovereign power more than none)

JOn Miller
(I thought you studied this stuff)

	01-12-2004 23:25									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Why should a state's vote be based on GDP and military might?

because they reflect power

otherwise it would be the state giving up its power for nothing in return

not really fair to it or it's citizens I beleive

Jon Miller

	01-12-2004 23:25									#103
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quote: it's the US that wants the free trade and has pushed the IMF to continue that practice. Even without the IMF, I'm sure you'd be getting the same situation because of our domestic policy.

nope, wrong. Kyoto agreement sucks too.

	01-12-2004 23:27									#104
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quote: if the US has less sovereignty than it did before, than the UN must have more, so it is a state

Um no. Can you describe to me who the UN has direct sovereignty over? Which people the UN is solely responsible for?

Is your opinion that the Organization of American States is a state? What about the African Union? How about the European Union?

If the UN was a state, then they should apply for membership in the UN!

quote: the richer states generally had more population (especially in the past) so the compromise was population base because that was easiest in the world, population has nothing to do with the 'wealth' of the state

So it's ok for you to allocate political power based on how much money you got?

	01-12-2004 23:28									#105
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quote: nope, wrong.

Nope, right. Or do you think the IMF has been the one negotiating US free trade agreements like NAFTA?

	01-12-2004 23:28									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Why should a state's vote be based on GDP and military might?

because that benefits the US, which is what Imran is saying we should do to these organizations. The WTO deals in world trade, hence its name, and the US accounts for 1/4th of all of that trade, and yet we just get 1 vote.

	01-12-2004 23:37									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui So it's ok for you to allocate political power based on how much money you got?

People are created equal. Nations are not.

There is nothing that makes one nation equal to another, except in name (And that is pretty meaningless). Is the EU one nation? Is it a number of nations? It has qualities of both.

according to your point of view, it would be best of the US declared that all of it's states were countries. It wouldn't have to change anything else, but would likely get close to 40 more votes in the UN.

That is just stupid, and shows that states are fundamentally different than individuals.

Jon Miller

	01-12-2004 23:40									#108
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quote: because that benefits the US, which is what Imran is saying we should do to these organizations. The WTO deals in world trade, hence its name, and the US accounts for 1/4th of all of that trade, and yet we just get 1 vote.

Why is that at all relevant? Do you think that Bill Gates should have a million times more votes than you because he's a million times richer?

quote: because they reflect power otherwise it would be the state giving up its power for nothing in return not really fair to it or it's citizens I beleive

Why's is that "unfair"?

	01-12-2004 23:45									#109
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maybe an analogy wil help

imagine two houses, yours with your small family, and a neighbor who has an extremely large family

imagine that your neighbor does stuff that you disagree with, like the father of the family has sex with his daughters and maintains an autrocratic hold on the household

now your family, much smaller, is relatively well off, and has weapons and nicer things

the other hosuehold mostly dislikes you and is jelous

now some of your hosuehold feels sorry for the other household, and want to combine your two households and make it democratic (which is sort of like your own)

what do you think is going to happen if suddenly your households are combined?

Jon Miller

	01-12-2004 23:52									#110
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What if the more autocratic household is better off economically and has more weapons (for an example, see China which has disproportionate economic and military power in relation to India)?

	01-12-2004 23:53									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo quote: because that benefits the US, which is what Imran is saying we should do to these organizations. The WTO deals in world trade, hence its name, and the US accounts for 1/4th of all of that trade, and yet we just get 1 vote. Why is that at all relevant? Do you think that Bill Gates should have a million times more votes than you because he's a million times richer?

That isn't a valid comparison to the WTO. He shouldn't have a million times more votes then me on determining what a law should be just because he is more wealthy(the WTO "shouldn't" do that but they now are), but at a microsoft stockholder meeting he should have much more a say in what his company does then 2 people with 1 share each. During the Steel tariff ruling, every country dumping on the US ruled that they weren't dumping.

	02-12-2004 00:18									#112
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Perhaps it's not irrational fear but instead more of an sinster agenda... like this...

Attachment: 1900_american_imperialism.jpg
This has been downloaded 66 time(s).

	02-12-2004 00:48									#113
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quote: Which is mostly due to American bullyism...

Nice to see you have joined the blame America first crowd.

quote: No, not really. For some reason we've convinced ourselves that we won't be treated fairly in international organizations, but that fear has never come to fruition, yet we continue on.

The Europeans would like to have it both ways here, spew venomous hatred agaainst our country, and then expect us to lovingly cede power to the "International Community". Anti-Americanism is a fact in the world today, and it's not a recent phenomon either. We simply cannot trust cultures in which there is widespread anti-US sentiment to produce people who will treat us fairly.

At least in this country, lawyers tend to lean towards the left. I don't know if that trend holds up to the same degree among legal professionals elsewhere, but if that is the case leftists abroad tend to be the most anti-US, leaving further room for concern.

As for examples of things that could lend to concern, the UN General Assembly Condemned our Cuba Embargo unanimously except for the USA and ISrael. The UN General assembly also routinely blasts our ally, Israel. It also made Libya the head of the UN Human Rights Council.

	02-12-2004 00:57									#114
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Comintern probably didn't help American inherent mistrust of international organizations either.

	02-12-2004 01:20									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov So I take you would agree with David Floyd then that the Nuremburg Trials had no legitimacy?

Yes. Victor's Justice would tend to lack legitimacy in a moral sense.

	02-12-2004 01:33									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi quote: Which is mostly due to American bullyism... Nice to see you have joined the blame America first crowd.

There's the "blame America first" crowd, and then there's the "blame the United Nations first" crowd.


I take it you belong to the second crowd?

	02-12-2004 01:53									#117
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quote: People are created equal. Nations are not.

How do you make that distinction? Why are people created equal? Each state has soveriegnty over its own people, shouldn't it be an equal on the world stage vis-a-vis other soveriegns? One soveriegn isn't more equal than another. Both of them have exclusive control over a set of people.

quote: Nice to see you have joined the blame America first crowd.

Come on... even pro-American people have to realize that our history has many black eyes, which are the direct cause of people disliking us.

quote: We simply cannot trust cultures in which there is widespread anti-US sentiment to produce people who will treat us fairly.

Then why should they trust the US who has been lording over them to treat them fairly?

quote: the UN General Assembly Condemned our Cuba Embargo unanimously except for the USA and ISrael.

Unilateral sanctions are usually frowned upon. Personally I'd like to see the sanctions ended as well.

quote: The UN General assembly also routinely blasts our ally, Israel. It also made Libya the head of the UN Human Rights Council.

I love how this is always trotted out, like Libya was elected head of it. 'L' comes after 'K', which is the reason Libya got to get to the head of the Human Rights Council. Alphabetical rotation of leadership will do that for ya.

	02-12-2004 01:55									#118
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4057531.stm

An interesting article that may illistraite what some concervatives have been speaking about.

	02-12-2004 01:58									#119
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A lawsuit against Rumsfeld was filed by a NEW YORK based group in Germany. Yep, those evil foriegners... oh wait, that's a domestic group... .

And as the article says:

quote: What happens next will depend on the German Federal Prosecutor's office.

Nothing has happened except a filing of a suit. I would think fellow Americans would be familiar with frivolous suits.

	02-12-2004 02:15									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller because they reflect power otherwise it would be the state giving up its power for nothing in return not really fair to it or it's citizens I beleive Jon Miller

So what you're saying is that you're opposed to any international cooperative organization whatsoever. There is no way to be part of a cooperative organization without giving up at least a little of one's "right" to do whatever the hell one wants. That's the one of the chief points of such organizations--to level the field somewhat and give smaller nations some protection against the whims of larger powers.

As for "nothing in return," I find that a bizarre statement. Joining the ICC gives us plenty in return. For instance, the good will of other nations who are also joining the accord. Second, we then have a say and active hand in bringing real war criminals to justice under the aegis of an international body. And the legitimacy that grants will go towards blunting criticism of the U.S. for acting only selfishly in foreign affairs.

I must say, JM, I never figured you for an unilateralist loon.