01-12-2004 22:17									#61
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I see the Imran Siddiqui project is going well.

	01-12-2004 22:18									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: Because (obviously) we don't think we're applying the parts that are crap Not a valid argument, since parts are applied by you selectively, i.e. sometimes they're crap, and sometimes, they're jolly good. .

Read the rest of the sentence: or applying those parts in the ways we think make them crap. That is, we think we use those methods properly (obviously).

	01-12-2004 22:19									#63
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I see the Imran Siddiqui project is going well.

Now I have latte foam on my keyboard.

	01-12-2004 22:20									#64
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara No, legitmate fear of payback.

I believe that's what I was saying...

	01-12-2004 22:20									#65
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Mostly, parts aren't wishy-washy enough. It's the entire documents' contradictive and vague manner that is what is problematic. ( This is coming from a staunch critic of Intl. law, btw )

	01-12-2004 22:22									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker It doesn't happen to us because we don't let it happen to us.

Might makes right, eh?

Alright, how about even a significant attempt to do so against the U.S. by the international body?

	01-12-2004 22:22									#67
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quote: Because (obviously) we don't think we're applying the parts that are crap, or applying those parts in the ways we think make them crap.

No, that's incorrect. You can't say that the treaties and custom we are applying are valid and other valid treaties and custom are crap. If you agree that treaties and custom are valid sources of international law, you can't pick and choose (unless at the time of the treaty or any time of custom you issued a reservation). However, it isn't the case that the parts we deny are those where we've issued a reservation. We'll deny international law that we've affirmed in the past, because as Boris put it:

quote: The U.S. here is objecting to the potential that it might be treated the same way it has treated other nations in the past, it seems to me.

--

quote: I see the Imran Siddiqui project is going well.

Stop that you dirty commie.. get your tentacles away!

	01-12-2004 22:24									#68
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uhh, I know how those "tentacle" scenarios always end. You may place "Communist Party of Apolyton" now, to save yourself the trouble.

	01-12-2004 22:25									#69
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quote: Might makes right, eh?

Isn't any worse than "what a bunch of intersted parties sez" makes right.

	01-12-2004 22:25									#70
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

quote: Because (obviously) we don't think we're applying the parts that are crap, or applying those parts in the ways we think make them crap.

No, that's incorrect. You can't say that the treaties and custom we are applying are valid and other valid treaties and custom are crap. If you agree that treaties and custom are valid sources of international law, you can't pick and choose (unless at the time of the treaty or any time of custom you issued a reservation). However, it isn't the case that the parts we deny are those where we've issued a reservation. We'll deny international law that we've affirmed in the past, because as Boris put it:

quote: The U.S. here is objecting to the potential that it might be treated the same way it has treated other nations in the past, it seems to me.

[/q]

So?

At the time we enforce international law, we feel that we are not enforcing it unjustly. Later, we may change our minds, but so what?

It's like complaining that Bush is inconsistent for lower taxes because FDR raised them

	01-12-2004 22:25									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Now I have latte foam on my keyboard.

Spoken like a true liberal, eh?

-Arrian

	01-12-2004 22:26									#72
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quote: I know how those "tentacle" scenarios always end.

That's cause you watch an unhealthy amount of Japanese porn .

	01-12-2004 22:27									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: Might makes right, eh? Isn't any worse than "what a bunch of intersted parties sez" makes right.

Yes, I think it is.

An analogy:

Might makes Right = Monarchy.

"bunch of interested parties sez" = Representative Democracy.

I'll take option #2, please. Faults? Shitloads of 'em. Better than option #1? You betcha.

-Arrian

	01-12-2004 22:27									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Might makes right, eh?

My point was that it's stupid to say "the danger has never come up, so there's nothing to fear and we can stop guarding against it" when the reason it has never come up is because we've guarded against it. It's like arguing that we should remove the fire codes because there have been almost no fires.

quote: Alright, how about even a significant attempt to do so against the U.S. by the international body?

Since we've never let them in the first place, how would they attempt to?

	01-12-2004 22:28									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Yes, I think so. An analogy: Might makes Right = Monarchy. "bunch of interested parties sez" = Representative Democracy. I'll take option #2, please. Faults? Shitloads of 'em. Better than option #1? You betcha. -Arrian

umm... last time I remembered, the parliament doesn't also act as jury.

	01-12-2004 22:30									#76
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It's a loose analogy, Azazel.

-Arrian

	01-12-2004 22:33									#77
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quote: At the time we enforce international law, we feel that we are not enforcing it unjustly. Later, we may change our minds, but so what?

The so what is that you can't just unilaterally decide that international law does not apply. It's already been set and you can't say that since we don't like it anymore we just won't follow it. Our name is on the treaty or we have accepted the custom. Unless we pass a law that invalidates the treaty (which, btw, we normally do NOT), we can't just go around and ignore international law.

It's like having a law passed by Congress and the President, and the next President decides to just ignore the law. He doesn't try to get a new law invalidating the old law; he just ignores the law on the books.

	01-12-2004 22:34									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker [q] Originally posted by Boris Godunov My point was that it's stupid to say "the danger has never come up, so there's nothing to fear and we can stop guarding against it" when the reason it has never come up is because we've guarded against it. It's like arguing that we should remove the fire codes because there have been almost no fires.

All well and good, but you're making a strawman. I never said we should give up sovereignty entirely, and signing on with the ICC doesn't do that. Given that there are safeguards already in place, our continued resistance appears to be less about concern for sovereignty and more about wanting to preserve our special place in the world.

quote: Since we've never let them in the first place, how would they attempt to?

Since we have no attempts, why should we always thwart the ICC when we have not a shred of evidence that it will be used to unfairly infringe on our sovereignty?

International relations does, inevitably, require some degree of trust. If we say we don't trust other nations to treat us fairly, what right have we to expect they not think the same of us?

	01-12-2004 22:36									#79
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quote: If we say we don't trust other nations to treat us fairly, what right have we to expect they not think the same of us?

Indeed. And then when we want a treaty passed, we may find less takers to sign off on it.

	01-12-2004 22:37									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian It's a loose analogy, Azazel. -Arrian

And thus, a bad one. Separation of powers is one of the most important things in our society, and a thing that is completely lacking in the realm of international law.

	01-12-2004 22:37									#81
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Bah, we'll make 'em sign with our BIG FRICKIN' LASER!

Sorry, Az's avatar set me off.

-Arrian

	01-12-2004 22:41									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel And thus, a bad one. Separation of powers is one of the most important things in our society, and a thing that is completely lacking in the realm of international law.

Ok, then. Let's change that, shall we? Oh,wait,that requires more international organizations...

All I'm saying is that stuff getting done by compromise between a bunch of interested parties is most likely better than might makes right. Perhaps only slightly better, yeah, but better nonetheless. If there is impartial judicial review of the process, so much the better.

-Arrian

	01-12-2004 22:43									#83
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quote: Separation of powers is one of the most important things in our society

Britain seems to manage fairly well without much seperation of powers at all .

	01-12-2004 22:46									#84
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quote: Ok, then. Let's change that, shall we? Oh,wait,that requires more international organizations...

EXACTLY!

I am not against international organizations, per se. I am for them. I am a goddamn communist, remember? I want a one world government. However, now, I think that it's a very very bad world government, esp. with regards to law and order. I'd rather have it abolished, and keep the good parts of it, as independent intl. organizations, than keep it in that stupid way, or make it worse, in that worse in that stupid way. However, I highly support it being improved!

	01-12-2004 22:51									#85
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Did y'all hear that our precious Congress just cut aid to every country that refuses to give us immunity in the ICC?

	01-12-2004 22:56									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Spoken like a true liberal, eh? -Arrian

Hey, it wasn't decaf, nor was it non-fat. Take that, panty-waists!

	01-12-2004 22:56									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Did y'all hear that our precious Congress just cut aid to every country that refuses to give us immunity in the ICC?

Yep... that is what I meant by actively trying to destroy it. The US also ****ed with Bosnian peacekeeping (using its veto) simply as a powerplay for this issue. The tactics used against the ICC by this administration is disgusting. It's one thing to disagree, quite another to do this.

	01-12-2004 22:56									#88
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Imran Siddiqui project? I didn't know he still needed to be turned.

	01-12-2004 22:56									#89
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the problem is that you want nations to be equal

they aren't, the US is stronger than the rest

so therefore it is unequal to force the US to do what a bunch of weaker nations want

otherwise, why doesn't the US split itself into a confederation of many smaller nations and get itself more votes? (wait, isn't that the EU...)

also there is the fact that we have actual enemies, or at least not freinds, in the world

there is no reason that I can see to volunteerly give power to those who do not seek our best interest unless we are made to

Jon Miller

	01-12-2004 22:57									#90
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quote: Britain seems to manage fairly well without much seperation of powers at all

They're a lucky exception.