02-12-2004 20:44									#61
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Exactly. Parents have every right to determine what their children read and see in schools and lawmakers have every right to put forward bills that determine how public funds are used.

How would you feel if they demanded students be taught that Jews and Blacks were mud people?

	02-12-2004 20:53									#62
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Actually, they should be more concerned that their children are taught TRUTH, even when that truth is uncomfortable.

School is not the place to push ideology or agenda, and parents and legislators ought not make it so.

-=Vel=-

	02-12-2004 20:56									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx School is not the place to push ideology or agenda, and parents and legislators ought not make it so. -=Vel=-

You mean like forcing integration?

	02-12-2004 21:06									#64
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara How would you feel if they demanded students be taught that Jews and Blacks were mud people?

I would try to change the school board opinion. Failing that, I would move to another school district (if possible). I already live in a community with vastly different beliefs on some issues than my own. I counter that effect by teaching my children what I believe and allow them to make up their own minds.

	02-12-2004 21:15									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist @Asher: I don't see how the existence of Bibles in the school library makes the education religious-influenced. My highschool had some pieces by Stalin in the library* - does that make my education stalinist-influenced? The Bible should be available as a reference for any student writing a paper on religion, and Western philosophy or literature two, altho those probably won't be much touched in elementary school. * Incl a piece on sociolinguistics, of all things.

First, we're talking elementary schools, not high-schools.

Second, the parents who choose a secular school do not want any religion involved in their education, which includes bibles (some argue they are religious books ).

	02-12-2004 21:18									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Actually, they should be more concerned that their children are taught TRUTH, even when that truth is uncomfortable. School is not the place to push ideology or agenda, and parents and legislators ought not make it so. -=Vel=-

TRUTH! What the hell is that? I'm not sure what is true in hard scientific disciplines never mind non-scientific ones.

All education involves opinion. We may believe that homosexuality is not a 'choice' and be uncaring of its 'influence' on our children. Others disagree. According to SCOTUS, they have the right to educate their children in a manner consistent with their values.

	02-12-2004 21:18									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka To turn everyone gay? Why would a straight man turn to gay? How can he start lusting after men instead of previously women?

Beware, hanging out too much in a sauna, with everyone having his sausage exposed, can do this to you.

	02-12-2004 21:20									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Beware, hanging out too much in a sauna, with everyone having his sausage exposed, can do this to you.

Are you speaking from personal experience ?

	02-12-2004 21:22									#69
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Education means exposure.

Yes, it's hard to know precisely what is and is not "true" sometimes.

That's part of what education enables. The process of teaching people to draw their own conclusions.

This is rather difficult to do with blinders on.

Education, it is not.

Look folks, the world's out there, and just because your kiddies don't learn about it in school doesn't mean they'll not get exposed.

Far better that it happen in a controlled and nurturing environment than in the bathroom stall or behind the school yard.

Preparedness.

-=Vel=-

	02-12-2004 21:24									#70
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Are you speaking from personal experience ?

No, I can't stand saunas. But I know somebody who recently posted a thread about how he was upset, because some people wouldn't expose their sausages to him in the sauna.

	02-12-2004 21:35									#71
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I can assume that most of us are opposed to NAMBLA. If a school had a book that supported such behaviour, we would be hippocrits if we did not oppose the presence of that book. By the same token, the baptists (amongst others) are simply doing the same thing. The fact that their opposition is based on religious beliefs and ours is not is immaterial. They have every right (as a community) to oppose what they view as the promotion of immoral behaviour in school and we have a right to teach our children our 'truth' at home.

	02-12-2004 21:38									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph No, I can't stand saunas. But I know somebody who recently posted a thread about how he was upset, because some people wouldn't expose their sausages to him in the sauna.

Sausages? Bratwurst or prinskorv?

I love saunas, its just a little silly having one down here.

	02-12-2004 21:39									#73
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Oh I don't disagree that a community should be given wide lattitude with regards to education, however, at present, in the country, homosexuality is not outlawed.

Because it is not outlawed, banning/burning books that make mention of the topic stretches the desires of the community a bit far.

Contrast that to the example you gave a moment ago. NAMBLA is an outlawed organization. We have laws prohibiting adults from having sexual relations with children, so yes, materials circulating in schools on this same topic would obviously be disallowed (and without much debate, I would imagine).

The point remains that one cannot "educate" if one selectively ignores the realities out there in the world, and irreparable damage can be caused in the name of "protecting our children" when we turn them loose in the world unprepared for the realities.

One tangible effect? We wind up with the next crop of bigots and racists.

-=Vel=-

	02-12-2004 21:40									#74
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH I love saunas, its just a little silly having one down here.

For us, it's called summer.

	02-12-2004 21:50									#75
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It's one person from Alabama.

Bingo, and the reaction I've heard, even here in Alabama, has been ridicule of Allen and his idea pretty much across the board. Why we keep sending these assclowns to Montgomery would be beyond me, if I didn't know from long, painful experience that most all our elections are assclown v. assclown.

	02-12-2004 21:55									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Oh I don't disagree that a community should be given wide lattitude with regards to education, however, at present, in the country, homosexuality is not outlawed. Because it is not outlawed, banning/burning books that make mention of the topic stretches the desires of the community a bit far.

I agree. As I said before, even if it is passed into law (which is extremely unlikely) it wont be upheld because it isnt a 'community' its the state (as a minimum).

quote: Contrast that to the example you gave a moment ago. NAMBLA is an outlawed organization. We have laws prohibiting adults from having sexual relations with children, so yes, materials circulating in schools on this same topic would obviously be disallowed (and without much debate, I would imagine).

It was a bad choice as an analogy. I believe the jist of the argument still holds though.

quote: The point remains that one cannot "educate" if one selectively ignores the realities out there in the world, and irreparable damage can be caused in the name of "protecting our children" when we turn them loose in the world unprepared for the realities. One tangible effect? We wind up with the next crop of bigots and racists. -=Vel=-

I'm not denying that there are consequences of such behaviour, I simply assert their right to be narrow minded.

	02-12-2004 21:58									#77
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara For us, it's called summer.

Exactly.

	02-12-2004 22:05									#78
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We just don't get to jump in the ice cold snow afterwards, though when you hit that 70 degree air conditioning, you'll think you did.

	02-12-2004 22:07									#79
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Yep...as a community, they do indeed have the right to be as bigoted and narrow minded as they wish.

Their schools, however, which are getting Federal matching funds, do not have such a luxury.

I'm afraid that my position is that if they wish to teach bigotry, then they are free to pursue that "education" at home, after class.

School though, should be illuminating, not selectively blinded.

-=Vel=-

	02-12-2004 22:12									#80
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Nah nah nah dumb Alabamians.
you don't burn heretic books only.
You oughta burn the heretic too.

	02-12-2004 22:14									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx School though, should be illuminating, not selectively blinded. -=Vel=-

Ahhh, let them. That means we won't have to compete against Alabamians for jobs.

	02-12-2004 22:16									#82
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Good point, but if memory serves, Alabama is already behind even SC in education, so we rarely have to compete with 'em now!

-=Vel=-

	02-12-2004 22:21									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Asher First, we're talking elementary schools, not high-schools.

The school had elementary-school pupils too. Do you hold their education was stalinism-tinged?

quote: Second, the parents who choose a secular school do not want any religion involved in their education, which includes bibles (some argue they are religious books ).

They might have whatever outlandish ideas they wish. The state - which pays for schools - shouldn't encourage them.

	02-12-2004 22:50									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Good point, but if memory serves, Alabama is already behind even SC in education, so we rarely have to compete with 'em now! -=Vel=-

Yeah, but the ones that drag our statistics down never want to leave their home counties anyway, so you were safe to begin with.

	02-12-2004 22:53									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist The school had elementary-school pupils too. Do you hold their education was stalinism-tinged? They might have whatever outlandish ideas they wish. The state - which pays for schools - shouldn't encourage them.

I simply don't understand your point.

Bibles are available in religious schools, and are not in secular schools.

This makes sense to me...

	02-12-2004 23:00									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel gay != intellectual.

book burning/book banning is anti-intellectual

	02-12-2004 23:01									#87
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@Asher: Well, it makes no sense whatsoever to me.

Would Qurans, too, be off-limits in secular schools? The Bhagavadgita? Homerus?


Edit: Damn xposting gays!

Last edited by Last Conformist on 02-12-2004 at 23:16

	02-12-2004 23:03									#88
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Solo!

-=Vel=-
(SC ranks, IIRC 47th in the nation, education-wise, so I fully realize that this pokes as much fun as my home state...we're bottom of the barrel and crotch of the bible belt, all in one breath!)

	02-12-2004 23:03									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I'm doing nothing of the sort. Just making the point, that books in elementary schools are censored, and people approve of this censorship. Why one book should be included and not another, is a decision made by librarians all the time.

Well you can't pin the word "hypocrisy" on me, because I would fully accept including the Bible in public school library collections.

	02-12-2004 23:08									#90
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quote: Originally posted by axi Banning the classics are we? What's next, Oliver Twist?

Those books listed are challenged books, but they haven't necessarily all been challenged by the religious right (as Molly Bloom would have you believe). For example, left wing PC police have made efforts to block Huck Fin, because it uses the N word.