02-12-2004 19:26									#61
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Yes we should. Abstinence is silly. The only reason to abstain from sex is that you don't want to do it. Otherwise it's fine.

	02-12-2004 19:30									#62
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Abstinence is an OPTION. It can be presented as an attractive option (so to speak), by pointing out the dangers - and responsibilities - involved in having sex.

But this strikes me as preaching, not teaching.

-Arrian

	02-12-2004 19:40									#63
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Abstinence is a moral choice. You can inform kids about facts related to that choice, but they must make the choice themselves. It's not up to schools to tell our children how to think.

It's like with elections: you can teach kids how democracy works, but you can't tell them how to vote. If schools would teach their kids that they should vote republican, it would be an outrage. Abstinence shouldn't be any different.

	02-12-2004 19:48									#64
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What dangers? I can think of pregnancy and sexually transmitted disease. Other than that, it is certainly healthier and more fun than drinking or taking drugs.

Both of those can be avoided with proper use of contraception. All my friends and I practiced safe sex (not with each other, you guttersnipes ), and there was no problem.

Abstinence programs are beloved of parents who can't stand the idea of their children having sex. Most of them are hypocrites, since they were doing it at the same age.

	02-12-2004 19:57									#65
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My sex ed classes in public school covered the bases of contraception and disease prevention, but always made clear that no method except abstinence was 100% effective. And this was almost 20 years ago. I fail to see the benefit of abstinence only eduction over this.

	02-12-2004 19:59									#66
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quote: What dangers? I can think of pregnancy and sexually transmitted disease.

Yep, and those are pretty big ones.

I'd add the potential for emotional harm/exploitation - especially if we're talking about sex between, say, an older man and a high school girl (although that's not to say there can't be exploitation & harm done if the situation was reversed, but that's the most common version).

Safe sex, while clearly superior than unsafe sex, is not foolproof. There remains danger, and that's something kids should know (in addition to how to use a condom).

-Arrian

	02-12-2004 20:00									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Safe sex, while clearly superior than unsafe sex, is not foolproof.

Neither's life.


I suggest we ban it.

	02-12-2004 20:03									#68
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Surely you're not under the mistaken impression that I'm supporting abstinence-only "sex ed" are you? I thought you could read.

-Arrian

	02-12-2004 20:07									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin If someone says condoms don't have an extremely high rate of stopping STDs then either their full of it

They're talking about latex (which is rubber, not plastic, btw--hence the name, rubbers). They claim that because HIV is smaller than the pores in the latex condoms, that they can't stop the spread of AIDS. This of course, ignores the fact that HIV can't travel without a medium, and the medium can't get through the pores. Thus, HIV can't get through the pores.

The only STD that condoms can't stop when used properly is a case of the crabs.

	02-12-2004 20:09									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Chaunk Some people are allergic to latex I guess.

There are plastic versions for people who can't use latex. Lamb "skin" is used for feel alone. They are utterly useless otherwise.

	02-12-2004 20:09									#71
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No, you are wrong there.

Condoms only have a 95% chance of stopping STDs when used properly.

Of course, that is a lot higher than is being claimed.

Jon Miller

	02-12-2004 20:10									#72
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quote: If the couple knows how to properly put on the condom; i.e. pinch the tip to get the air out, leave a bit extra at the top, roll it back and don't put on petroluem jelly which can damage the latex then they're damn near fool proof.

I think you're going to need backup for this "damn near fool proof" statement, because my sex ed class (where they didn't even mention abstinence) cited statistics that indicate condoms aren't at all fool proof.

	02-12-2004 20:11									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon What dangers? I can think of pregnancy and sexually transmitted disease. Other than that, it is certainly healthier and more fun than drinking or taking drugs.

Well, there's the danger of hooking up with someone who doesn't know what he's doing, and getting the impression that sex is boring and painful.

	02-12-2004 20:11									#74
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thanks Jon. source? 31% sounded OK to me

	02-12-2004 20:13									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion thanks Jon. source? 31% sounded OK to me

Try reading the article in the OP, where they give a 97% success rate. The 31% failure rate is when condoms are used improperly, which is a lot better than the 85% failure rate abstinence has (i.e., 85% of those taking abstinence pledges go on to have sex).

	02-12-2004 20:15									#76
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I remember it being in the high 90s (from my sex ed class way back when ). 97.7 or somesuch.

-Arrian

	02-12-2004 20:16									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Surely you're not under the mistaken impression that I'm supporting abstinence-only "sex ed" are you? I thought you could read. -Arrian

Arrian, do you need smilies inserted somewhere sensitive?

I thought you had a senzayuma fercrissakes.

The point is, someone like Obi Gyn gets a fit of the vapours, because, oh criminy, lawks-a-mucky, some people might get taught that condoms can protect you from H.I.V. and other sexually transmitted diseases.

But hey, he's disovered that condoms aren't 110% effective- who knew? So this means there's a slight risk involved- condoms come off, people don't use them correctly, et cetera.

Well, that's called life. There are no cast iron guarantees, but there are steps people can take to reduce their risk of exposure. And a condom is one of those steps.

	02-12-2004 20:19									#78
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara (i.e., 85% of those taking abstinence pledges go on to have sex).

Conclusion: 15% of US youngsters are social incompetent geeks.

	02-12-2004 20:22									#79
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No, I probably need another diet coke (coffee doesn't agree with me, so that's my method of caffiene injection).

I tend to react poorly to being put into Benny boy's camp, which is how I (mis)interpreted your post.

-Arrian, wandering off to get that coke and google senzayuma

Last edited by Arrian on 02-12-2004 at 20:35

	02-12-2004 20:23									#80
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quote: But hey, he's disovered that condoms aren't 110% effective- who knew? So this means there's a slight risk involved- condoms come off, people don't use them correctly, et cetera.

That's a rather glib way of putting it. If condoms are only 98% or 99% effective each go when used properly, then over time you have a cumulative chance of failure that is much higher. Better than nothing, of course. But it is much more than a "slight risk."

	02-12-2004 20:38									#81
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quote: Originally posted by DanS That's a rather glib way of putting it. If condoms are only 98% or 99% effective each go when used properly, then over time you have a cumulative chance of failure that is much higher. Better than nothing, of course. But it is much more than a "slight risk."

Sarcastic not glib. Unlike Obi Gyn and the Vatican I can quote unbiblical chapter and verse on safer sex and condom usage.

" The church's claims are revealed in a BBC1 Panorama programme, Sex and the Holy City, to be broadcast on Sunday. The president of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Family, Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo, told the programme: "The Aids virus is roughly 450 times smaller than the spermatozoon. The spermatozoon can easily pass through the 'net' that is formed by the condom.

"These margins of uncertainty... should represent an obligation on the part of the health ministries and all these campaigns to act in the same way as they do with regard to cigarettes, which they state to be a danger."

The WHO has condemned the Vatican's views, saying: "These incorrect statements about condoms and HIV are dangerous when we are facing a global pandemic which has already killed more than 20 million people, and currently affects at least 42 million."

The organisation says "consistent and correct" condom use reduces the risk of HIV infection by 90%. There may be breakage or slippage of condoms - but not, the WHO says, holes through which the virus can pass .

Scientific research by a group including the US National Institutes of Health and the WHO found "intact condoms... are essentially impermeable to particles the size of STD pathogens including the smallest sexually transmitted virus... condoms provide a highly effective barrier to transmission of particles of similar size to those of the smallest STD viruses".

The Vatican's Cardinal Trujillo said: "They are wrong about that... this is an easily recognisable fact."

The programme includes a Catholic nun advising her HIV-infected choir master not to use condoms with his wife because "the virus can pass through".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/aids/stor...59068%2C00.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3176982.stm

	02-12-2004 20:46									#82
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quote: The organisation says "consistent and correct" condom use reduces the risk of HIV infection by 90%.

I would have to see the math that they use to arrive at the 90% figure. At a minimum, this might be a useful metric from a public health perspective (WHO) but useless at helping an individual form a solid decision about the impact of his personal actions (the church), since some people have more sex than others and the circumstances of sex vary widely.

	02-12-2004 20:47									#83
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quote: Originally posted by DanS That's a rather glib way of putting it. If condoms are only 98% or 99% effective each go when used properly, then over time you have a cumulative chance of failure that is much higher. Better than nothing, of course. But it is much more than a "slight risk."

No, there's no such thing as a "cumulative chance of failure" because you don't reuse condoms. At least I don't think you do...

	02-12-2004 20:48									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I hope you are not that rough all the time

rough sex

pansy boy tender sex

	02-12-2004 20:48									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Chaunk Lets kill all the stupid people then!

Are chicken people?

	02-12-2004 20:52									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Yes we should. Abstinence is silly. The only reason to abstain from sex is that you don't want to do it. Otherwise it's fine.

I abstain from sex all the time. And I'm all the better for it.

	02-12-2004 20:54									#87
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara There are plastic versions for people who can't use latex. Lamb "skin" is used for feel alone. They are utterly useless otherwise.

then why use them at all?

	02-12-2004 20:58									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Yes we should. Abstinence is silly. The only reason to abstain from sex is that you don't want to do it. Otherwise it's fine.

Why is abstinence silly? You have 100% chance of avoiding pregnancy. You 100% chance of avoiding STD's resulting from sexual intercourse. You also avoid any negative emotional effects from having sex with someone you shouldn't have.

Abstinence can help teach young people to respect their bodies and respect the opposite sex more. It can also help teach young people that there is more to life than sex. And it can help teach young people to make better priorities in life and to value more meaningful relationships. Those are noble goals that you don't get from the "if it feels good, just do it but wear a condom" school of thought. It is that school of thought that has caused the huge social decay that we are suffering from in this country.

	02-12-2004 20:59									#89
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as for condom usage.

let's just say condoms are mandatory in Nevada brothels. Since the inception of AIDS, there has been no case of hiv transmission or AIDS in a Nevada brothel.

Do we need more proof that the condom works?

Do you realize how much sex is going on in these places? You could argue that most people who are hiv positive don't go to brothels, so it's hard to guess how effective they are. But I take my chances with condoms

And I believe sex ed classes in middle school (or junior high school) should require students put a condom on a banana properly in order to pass the class.

It's that figgin' simple!

	02-12-2004 21:00									#90
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat Why is abstinence silly? You have 100% chance of avoiding pregnancy. You 100% chance of avoiding STD's resulting from sexual intercourse. You also avoid any negative emotional effects from having sex with someone you shouldn't have. Abstinence can help teach young people to respect their bodies and respect the opposite sex more. It can also help teach young people that there is more to life than sex. And it can help teach young people to make better priorities in life and to value more meaningful relationships. Those are noble goals that you don't get from the "if it feels good, just do it but wear a condom" school of thought. It is that school of thought that has caused the huge social decay that we are suffering from in this country.

you blame sex on the society decay

at least be a good conservative like me, and blame it on divorce and the collapse of the family structure.