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chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
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  Old Post 04-12-2004 23:33 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
quote:
Ideally, condoms have a 97% success rate. Ideally, pledges have a 100% success rate.


But in fact, condoms have a near perfect success rate, and in fact the success rate for pledges is much lower and the use of contraceptives among pledge breakers is much lower.


Well, not quite. Comdoms, however, have a much better actual success rate than abstinence pledges: 70% to 15%.

MosesPresley is offline MosesPresley
Warlord

Dec 1999
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  Old Post 04-12-2004 23:43 Visit MosesPresley's homepage!
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Just say no ... to sex!
Posted: December 3, 2004
1:00 a.m. Eastern

Bill Press

© 2004 Tribune Media Services, Inc.

In one of his more enlightened moments, President Bush promised to cut government fat by getting rid of programs that don't work. Now there's a goal we can all applaud. So why is he still spending so much money on abstinence-only education?

You don't have to be a Harvard scholar to know that teaching abstinence alone doesn't work. You just have to be a normal, red-blooded teenager.

True, abstinence is the best answer. True, abstinence does work 100 percent of the time. If you never have sex, you will never get pregnant, become HIV-positive or contract any sexually transmitted disease. It's the one, sure, proven way to avoid all three. But expecting all teenagers to save their first sexual experience until their wedding night is like telling them not to get acne. They may want to say no, but their body wants to say yes.

The average American starts having sex at 17, while the average age for getting married is 25 to 27. That's a big gap to fill with wishful thinking. If we're really serious about preventing teen pregnancy, HIV or STDs, the only effective program is to teach kids abstinence, first – and safe sex, second. In other words, prepare them for sex, instead of trying to scare them out of it.

That's how we should we spending our money: on honest, complete sex education – beginning with a strong emphasis on abstinence. Instead, we're throwing money away on abstinence-only. Lots of it: $170 million in next year's budget, more than twice what was spent on abstinence programs in 2001. And here's the worst part: Not only have abstinence-only programs failed, they're telling our kids lies.

The Southern Baptist Convention claims that in the 10 years since launching its "True Love Waits" program, over 2.4 million teenagers have taken the virginity pledge. But, as reported by Esther Kaplan in her excellent new book, "With God On Their Side," that doesn't mean they keep the pledge.

Researchers from Columbia University interviewed a group of 12- to 18-year-olds when they first took the pledge and again six years later. They found that 88 percent of teenagers who had pledged virginity until marriage ended up having premarital sex and that their rates of sexually transmitted diseases were identical to those of teenagers who had not signed the pledge. Most troubling of all, the Columbia study found that virginity pledgers were less likely to use condoms, less likely to seek out medical care for an STD and less likely even to know they'd contracted one. They proved more irresponsible than kids who took no pledge at all.

No wonder such programs have failed. They don't tell teens the truth. A congressional investigation recently examined the curricula of 13 abstinence-only programs now receiving federal funding. Its report, released by U.S. Rep. Henry Waxman, D-Calif., shows that 11 out of 13 programs contain "major errors and distortions of public health data."

One text, for example, teaches that simply touching another person's genitals "can result in pregnancy." Others assert that sexual activity increases the risk of cervical cancer, that having an abortion means a woman is more prone to commit suicide, and that men need "little or no preparation for sex, while a woman often needs hours of mental and emotional preparation." None of this is supported by any scientific evidence.

Most of the misinformation is about the dreaded condom. By law, teachers in abstinence-only programs – funded by our tax dollars – aren't even allowed to mention the word "condom" except in talking about how often condoms fail. Abstinence-only programs dismiss the condom as useless in preventing pregnancy or AIDS, even though the Centers for Disease Control, the nation's prestigious medical laboratory, concludes: "Latex condoms, when used consistently and correctly, are highly effective in preventing the transmission of HIV, the virus that causes AIDS." Fortunately, our scientists haven't been muzzled – yet!

So, again, why is President Bush spending so much money on a failed, hopeless, fraudulent program? Because this is one more giveaway to his religious conservative political base. All abstinence-only government grants go to so-called "faith-based" or "church-based" organizations, which are more interested in preventing sex than preventing disease. It's religion over science, and our kids are suffering.

After 10 years, here's what we know about abstinence-only programs: They misrepresent the facts. They don't fully educate or prepare teenagers for the responsibilities of adulthood. They don't work. And they waste good taxpayer dollars. This is bad government.

*********

This repeats some information posted in the original article, but I thought it was worth posting because of a couple of points Press makes.

Wycoff is offline Wycoff
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Feb 2003
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Well, not quite. Comdoms, however, have a much better actual success rate than abstinence pledges: 70% to 15%.


Its on thing to take an abstinence plegde when your 12, its quite another to keep it when your a 19 year old college student. Abstinence pledges are completely and utterly ridiculous. Rather than teaching abstinance, people should focus on telling theior sons and daoughters not to sleep around / randomly hook up with people at parties. After a certain age Abstinence is a pipe dream. It'd be better to tell people to try and build relationships before having sex.

BlackCat is offline BlackCat
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Jul 2004
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  Old Post 05-12-2004 05:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Wycoff


Its on thing to take an abstinence plegde when your 12, its quite another to keep it when your a 19 year old college student. Abstinence pledges are completely and utterly ridiculous. Rather than teaching abstinance, people should focus on telling theior sons and daoughters not to sleep around / randomly hook up with people at parties. After a certain age Abstinence is a pipe dream. It'd be better to tell people to try and build relationships before having sex.


I'm not shure that american children are that much different from european children so the itch starts long before the age of 19. At 19 you at least have started to think rationally and had got over the worst part of changing from a child to an adult. At the age og 12 you probably thinks that the opposite sex is disgusting (not sexually, just : boys thinks girls are weird and girls thinks the same about boys) and then it is easy to give such a pledge because they don't know what it actually is they are pledging to. Two to three years later hormones start to work and now the pledge doesn't any more make sense.

Wycoff is offline Wycoff
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Feb 2003
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackCat

At the age og 12 you probably thinks that the opposite sex is disgusting (not sexually, just : boys thinks girls are weird and girls thinks the same about boys) and then it is easy to give such a pledge because they don't know what it actually is they are pledging to. Two to three years later hormones start to work and now the pledge doesn't any more make sense.


That's exactly the point that I was getting at in my post that you quoted. Its the whole reason I made that post. Its easy for a 12 year old to make that pledge, but its largely meaningless when their hormones start to kick in.

BlackCat is offline BlackCat
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Jul 2004
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I didn't think we disagreed It was just your suggestion that it first hit at 19 i didn't agree with.

Wycoff is offline Wycoff
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Feb 2003
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  Old Post 05-12-2004 06:19
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackCat
I didn't think we disagreed It was just your suggestion that it first hit at 19 i didn't agree with.


Oh, I just used that age to underscore the ridiculousness of expecting that an abstinance pledge taken at 12 would have any kind of effect years later.

Rufus T. Firefly is offline Rufus T. Firefly
Prince
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Sep 2000
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  Old Post 05-12-2004 09:58
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quote:
Originally posted by MosesPresley
Just say no ... to sex!
Posted: December 3, 2004
1:00 a.m. Eastern


This was a brilliant article. Thank you, thank you, thank you for posting it. I especially liked..

quote:
Researchers from Columbia University interviewed a group of 12- to 18-year-olds when they first took the pledge and again six years later. They found that 88 percent of teenagers who had pledged virginity until marriage ended up having premarital sex and that their rates of sexually transmitted diseases were identical to those of teenagers who had not signed the pledge. Most troubling of all, the Columbia study found that virginity pledgers were less likely to use condoms, less likely to seek out medical care for an STD and less likely even to know they'd contracted one. They proved more irresponsible than kids who took no pledge at all.


So abstinence-only education is actually exacerbating the problem. Of course, this is an Administration that's never used clear, documented, abject failure as a reason to reconsider its policies.

quote:
It's religion over science, and our kids are suffering.


Exactly.

MichaeltheGreat is offline MichaeltheGreat
Apolyton Grand Executioner
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Oct 1999
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  Old Post 05-12-2004 11:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten


You are correct, sir...

BTW, I still don't see what's incorrect about the "touching genitals may cause pregnancy" statement...


Depends what you touch 'em with, cowboy.

Jaguar is offline Jaguar
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Apr 2000
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  Old Post 05-12-2004 12:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wycoff


That's exactly the point that I was getting at in my post that you quoted. Its the whole reason I made that post. Its easy for a 12 year old to make that pledge, but its largely meaningless when their hormones start to kick in.

12 year olds absolutely have hormones and attractions. I was one only four years ago. Try more like 9 year olds.

Ben Kenobi is offline Ben Kenobi
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Oct 2002
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  Old Post 05-12-2004 13:18
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quote:

Yes, and that's what typically happens where abortion is banned and the women has to go to illegal abortion "clinics" or try with the steel hanger. Where abortion is legal it's a very seldom thing.


Seldom? Still happens. And that is enough to say that abortion can cause sterility.

el freako is offline el freako
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Bristol, European Union
Oct 1999
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  Old Post 05-12-2004 13:18
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I think you americans should be glad you have five times the prevalence of teenage pregancy than here in europe - after all it accounts for a third of the difference between our respective birth rates.

Ben Kenobi is offline Ben Kenobi
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Oct 2002
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quote:

But in fact, condoms have a near perfect success rate, and in fact the success rate for pledges is much lower and the use of contraceptives among pledge breakers is much lower.


We're talking about the HIV transmission rate. If you start sexual activity early, you are more likely to have more partners, which has a drastic effect on your chances to contract HIV. If you break a pledge, even given the increased likelihood of failure, you will have fewer partners, and less risk.

Ben Kenobi is offline Ben Kenobi
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Oct 2002
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  Old Post 05-12-2004 13:25
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quote:

Its on thing to take an abstinence plegde when your 12, its quite another to keep it when your a 19 year old college student. Abstinence pledges are completely and utterly ridiculous. Rather than teaching abstinance, people should focus on telling theior sons and daoughters not to sleep around / randomly hook up with people at parties. After a certain age Abstinence is a pipe dream. It'd be better to tell people to try and build relationships before having sex.


Yeah, and what's different from telling people to build a relationship in marriage, and an abstinence pledge? Or to be faithful to one partner?

I agree, it shouldn't just be about abstinence, there should also be something about fidelity.

Ben Kenobi is offline Ben Kenobi
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Oct 2002
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quote:

I've used condoms for nearly 20 years, with not one mishap.


Condom alone?

Lazarus and the Gimp is offline Lazarus and the Gimp
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Aug 2000
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  Old Post 05-12-2004 15:39
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Yep.

Lazarus and the Gimp is offline Lazarus and the Gimp
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Seldom? Still happens. And that is enough to say that abortion can cause sterility.


It's also enough to say that pregnancy can cause sterility, whether it goes to term or not. Ben- how can you bring yourself to be so wilfully stupid when you aren't?

Stefu is offline Stefu
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Jan 1970
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Think about che's 17'th birthday. "I give you the most precious gift of all... the gift of masturbation!"

quote:
where our lutherans kid goes to at the age of 14


Orthodox kids too, although ours has a slightly different name. (OMG APARTHEID SEGREGATION!)

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
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quote:
Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Depends what you touch 'em with, cowboy.


Sure does. Guess we just do it different (and better) on the Plains...

Dr Strangelove is offline Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
quote:
Large scale surveys show that groups that use condoms "all the time" still have a pregnancy rate about one-third to one-half that of groups using no birth control.




Please, tell me you're lying...


No, I'm not. Why do you think that the condom had become a largley ignored form of birth control before AIDS appeared? Everyone knew that thery were a lousy, undependable form of birth control. When I went to medical school we were not encouraged to push for the use of condoms. In the time between the invention of the contraceptive pill and the discovery of AIDS most physicians and sex clinics would not have advised their clients to use of condoms for fear of becoming involved in a "wrongful life" lawsuit should the condom fail. Some surveys shwoed condom use to be only slightly better than the "rhytmn" method.

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Condom alone?


I'm on almost 7 years with condoms and no problems.

ajbera is offline ajbera
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Apr 1999
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  Old Post 05-12-2004 23:08
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Is there anything we can do to combat the innacuracies of the abstinence-only education? How many OT posters are high-school students where they teach abstinence-only ed? Can we come up with a one-sheet of factual info, with references and sources, regarding both abstinence and sexual safety & precautions (and risks), that can be easily e-mailed between students or printed out and left in restrooms, etc.? Nothing anti-abstinence or anti-conservative, but neutral, accurate, informative, with links to sources. I'm not anti-conservative, but I loathe misinformation. I just feel there must be something we can do that would be easy to get out to those most at risk.

The assistance and feedback from the medically-oriented OT gang would be most helpful.

Just a thought.

Dis is offline Dis
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quote:
Originally posted by Jaguar

12 year olds absolutely have hormones and attractions. I was one only four years ago. Try more like 9 year olds.


I didn't at age 12.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
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quote:
No, I'm not. Why do you think that the condom had become a largley ignored form of birth control before AIDS appeared? Everyone knew that thery were a lousy, undependable form of birth control. When I went to medical school we were not encouraged to push for the use of condoms. In the time between the invention of the contraceptive pill and the discovery of AIDS most physicians and sex clinics would not have advised their clients to use of condoms for fear of becoming involved in a "wrongful life" lawsuit should the condom fail. Some surveys shwoed condom use to be only slightly better than the "rhytmn" method.


Oh, dear god...

Dr Strangelove is offline Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by KrazyHorse


I'm on almost 7 years with condoms and no problems.


The condom manufacturers came by one night and they used you as the model while you were asleep. Now the rest of us are stuck with french letters that fit us about as well as the underwear we wore when we were 8 would if we tried to wear them today. This explains the lousy track record of condoms in general.

Jaguar is offline Jaguar
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quote:
Originally posted by Dissident


I didn't at age 12.

And man, you make up for it now.

Dr Strangelove is offline Dr Strangelove
King
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quote:
Originally posted by Dissident


I didn't at age 12.


Most 12 year old boys don't yet have the equipment to act out on their fantasies. Most guys old enough to do anything with 12 year old girls understand how deeply in trouble they would be if they were caught helping 12 year old girls act out their fantasies.

Jon Miller is offline Jon Miller
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May 1999
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  Old Post 06-12-2004 10:31
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I deffinitely could

unfortunately (or fortunately more likely) I didn't have the body or personality that girls liked

but a lot of the 12 year-old girls were with 2+ yearolder guys, who could act out their fantasies

Jon Miller

MRT144 is offline MRT144
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i think that a lot of problems with condoms is user error.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

Seldom? Still happens. And that is enough to say that abortion can cause sterility.


To properly educate someone you need to tell them not only what could happen but also satistically how often it occurs. In other words, sterility almost never happens and you have a better chance of being hit by lightning.

 
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