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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:17
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quote:
What I argue for is a centralized technocratic system that is a democracy. Wages vary, outside controls on government industry by classical government regulations remain, yet, supply and demand is centralized, and value is assigned not by pure wants, but by needs that have the wants calculated into them. So, for example, the demand for a product will not be seen as pure desire of it, but seen as the true need for the product, with the desire of it included in the calculation. (We're, of course, talking about demand that needs to be supplied. ) However, this will not be static, and will be decided democratically. This is possible for many ages, and the only aspect of it that is technology-aided, is the centralization, and the application of it for larger societies. |
So you're proposing that the government (am I correct in assuming a form of representative democracy, or do you also propose direct democracy - and if so, how do you deal with the time issue?) decides what products should be produced by combining pure "want" with other factors designed to indicate the "real" value to society?
I'm not necessarily against that, really.
-Arrian
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
There is no theoretical backing for what you are saying. Charging people for how much polution they create gives a "proper" incentive for companies to produce an effecient amount. Just charging specific companies based on how the produce the polution doesn't make any sense at all. You are the one who is just making this stuff up. You need to learn some of the theories, or you have no justification for what you are claiming. |
I make up nothing and deal in reality. natural gas is immensely cleaner than oil or coal.
To penalize or prevent the natural gas producer makes no sense. If you are talking a tax, I probably wouldn't mind since the purchasers of the natural gas should be willing to pay more to buy something that would lessen the tax they would have to pay burning coal or oil
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Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:17
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quote:
So you're proposing that the government (am I correct in assuming a form of representative democracy, or do you also propose direct democracy - and if so, how do you deal with the time issue?) decides what products should be produced by combining pure "want" with other factors designed to indicate the "real" value to society?
I'm not necessarily against that, really.
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Pretty much, with the mechanism of assigning value not being purely government held, but can be direct-democratic, to a certain degree ( there are ways of allowing this, from making it a civil duty similar to jury duty, or country/ society/ state-wide polling that would assign general directions to items, with the polling being made at home, in front of your TV, via your 3G cellphone, on your PDA, your laptop, etc.
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Japher
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Ook! Ook! Ack! Ack! Ack!
Jun 2002
time: 05:17
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quote:
Similar in principal to OPEC. Needs more competition in both cases. |
OPEC is up in arms about limiting oil supplies so as not to inflate prices. Interesting, that if they keep prices low they will gaurentee future use instead of encourage alternative methods that just happen to be cleaner. However, with natural gas which is cleaner they are limiting supplies and inflating prices... Kind of a juxtaposition for the same cause.
quote:
polution isn't the only consideration. You have to consider the price and availability of subsitutes also. Why not just make it illegal to burn coal? Because we wouldn't benefit from it. That's why we should tax them equally for the polution they create. That will discourage some of it's use, but not all. |
When I think pollution, I think waste. Not just waste that is released to the environment in the form of what many view pollution as, but waste in the form of unwarrented production costs, storage, firings and hirings, trainings, etc... anything that doesn't directly apply to the production of a product.
If you fine someone for enviro polluters, such as the EPA monitors and does, you end up with industries being created to control emissions. I know a guy who actually makes emission sensors for factories. Is this a waste? He has a job, but it is a job funded by those factories! The companies spending millions or billions of dollars on monitoring systems alone. Then take into account what it costs for the EPA to charge, fine, and enforce the laws... After all is said in done the financial measures that go into enforcing the control of this one type of pollution actually creates a totally different kind.
I'm not saying it is right or wrong, but a company owes it to itself to reduce pollution, of all kinds, regardless of regulations and current economic policies. Waste is waste, regardless of what form it comes in.
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Kidicious
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Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Azazel
Pretty much, with the mechanism of assigning value not being purely government held, but can be direct-democratic, to a certain degree ( there are ways of allowing this, from making it a civil duty similar to jury duty, or country/ society/ state-wide polling that would assign general directions to items, with the polling being made at home, in front of your TV, via your 3G cellphone, on your PDA, your laptop, etc. |
You can also see how much is left in the store. How much people are willing to pay for something is a good indication of value. 
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Ogie Oglethorpe
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Marietta, GA
Dec 1999
time: 05:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Japher
OPEC is up in arms about limiting oil supplies so as not to inflate prices. Interesting, that if they keep prices low they will gaurentee future use instead of encourage alternative methods that just happen to be cleaner. However, with natural gas which is cleaner they are limiting supplies and inflating prices... Kind of a juxtaposition for the same cause.
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True OPEC always needs to be wary of oil pricing as more difficult to extract resources can be tapped. Likewise they see the benefit of keeping the economies humming to drive demand.
OTOH gas suppliers alos need be wary as other alternatives are availble in certain areas. Those borderline areas often are ripe for conversion to heat pumps, oil furnaces, and the like.
quote:
When I think pollution, I think waste. Not just waste that is released to the environment in the form of what many view pollution as, but waste in the form of unwarrented production costs, storage, firings and hirings, trainings, etc... anything that doesn't directly apply to the production of a product.
If you fine someone for enviro polluters, such as the EPA monitors and does, you end up with industries being created to control emissions. I know a guy who actually makes emission sensors for factories. Is this a waste? He has a job, but it is a job funded by those factories! The companies spending millions or billions of dollars on monitoring systems alone. Then take into account what it costs for the EPA to charge, fine, and enforce the laws... After all is said in done the financial measures that go into enforcing the control of this one type of pollution actually creates a totally different kind.
I'm not saying it is right or wrong, but a company owes it to itself to reduce pollution, of all kinds, regardless of regulations and current economic policies. Waste is waste, regardless of what form it comes in. |
I'm sure this will simply be viewed as more of the cry me a river tripe by those arguing for harsher company compliance. 
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Kidicious
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Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Japher
When I think pollution, I think waste. Not just waste that is released to the environment in the form of what many view pollution as, but waste in the form of unwarrented production costs, storage, firings and hirings, trainings, etc... anything that doesn't directly apply to the production of a product.
If you fine someone for enviro polluters, such as the EPA monitors and does, you end up with industries being created to control emissions. I know a guy who actually makes emission sensors for factories. Is this a waste? He has a job, but it is a job funded by those factories! The companies spending millions or billions of dollars on monitoring systems alone. Then take into account what it costs for the EPA to charge, fine, and enforce the laws... After all is said in done the financial measures that go into enforcing the control of this one type of pollution actually creates a totally different kind.
I'm not saying it is right or wrong, but a company owes it to itself to reduce pollution, of all kinds, regardless of regulations and current economic policies. Waste is waste, regardless of what form it comes in. |
I don't think this is much of a cost. Maybe for smaller corporations, but then thats why you allow a miniimum amount.
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10-12-2004 23:35
) might have to concede that particular industry to public control (or maybe just the pipeline infrastructure). 
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