11-12-2004 00:21									#331
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian No, that's not what I meant. How do you break the monopoly? -Arrian

Whoops sorry. I should have known you would see the obvious relationship.

In times past the US anti-trust laws could be counted on to break up the monopolies. With the advent of multinationals that doesn't hold sway obviously. For the small local monopolies, take cable for example, the winning approach has been other technologies like sattelite TV.

I would suggest we are likely a few years away from the same sorts of technologies but I am hopeful that local housing developments will be able to afford fuel cell power alternatives.

Aside from that .... I am open to suggestions.

	11-12-2004 00:21									#332
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious You can also see how much is left in the store. How much people are willing to pay for something is a good indication of value.

You've clearly misunderstood me. That's the thing I was arguing against, a basic flaw in the consumer retail system.

	11-12-2004 00:23									#333
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel You've clearly misunderstood me. That's the thing I was arguing against, a basic flaw in the consumer retail system.

Sure it's flawed. But it can be fixed. Why would you not use data? You just have to understand the flaws in it to understand the information it will give you.

	11-12-2004 00:24									#334
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quote: For the small local monopolies, take cable for example, the winning approach has been other technologies like sattelite TV.

I am kinda amused that there has been a big to-do lately about introducing more competition in the Cable TV market... but not much is said about the power monopolies. Maybe because it's been a known problem for longer, whereas Cable is newer... or maybe because people can be silly at times

So the situation as it stands requires technology that has yet to be discovered or implemented on a large scale. That's pretty much what I thought.

Hence heavy regulation. De-regulation, at least for the time being, seems like a bad idea.

-Arrian

	11-12-2004 00:27									#335
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Soon, the barriers between information carrying will break. VOIP, Interactive TV, Internet, they are already carried over the same cables. Why not have a single network for them all, instead of competing?

	11-12-2004 00:32									#336
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I don't think this is much of a cost. Maybe for smaller corporations, but then thats why you allow a miniimum amount.

You have no idea how much this represents.

As an example, for a plant with a 10 MM operating budget annually one can easily expect the costs to exceed 5% and likely around 8-10%. That includes an environmental officer, testings, filings, permittings, systems maintenance, operating labor, downtime, waste disposal etc. Makes the opportunity to have start up facilities near non-existant.

You see its not so much the shutting down of existing businesses and moving offshore. No its more the decision to re-invest capital into existing or startup businesses as these especially are the means of new job creation.

You seems to harp on the evil mega-corporations but what you really harm/impact is the small companies that provide the most meaningful job growth potential.

	11-12-2004 00:43									#337
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10MM is a small company. Compling to rules and regulation, as well as cutting waste, is much easier to do with larger companies as yield is a value determined from multipliers not additions.

If you make 100 units/batch and due to regulations you must destroy (for quality) 10 units/batch that's a 10% lost. However, in most instances you only have to sacrafice 10 units/batch without regard to batch size. hence you could make 1000 units/batch and only sacrifice 10. However, small companies can't always sell 1000 units, and therefore get creamed.

They must find better ways to reduce the waste.

And, when everything is added up, it's a lot of money.

I have a boss who calls it "getting pecked to death by baby ducks"

	11-12-2004 00:50									#338
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quote: Originally posted by Japher 10MM is a small company. Compling to rules and regulation, as well as cutting waste, is much easier to do with larger companies as yield is a value determined from multipliers not additions.

I chose a small company (40-50 employees) in order to illustrate my point that the ones that get creamed are the startups. Hence the reason why startups are finding more opportunity outside the US.

	11-12-2004 01:08									#339
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber I disagree. The theory is that the damage to neighbors can't occur but for your operation.

Yes, well, Congress should've taken that into account when giving you the permit.

	11-12-2004 01:11									#340
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber I am still curious as to when these explicit authoriations come about. Our parliament don't give them ( to my knowledge)-- ANY industrial activity is told to apply to the appropriate departments and comply with all relevant laws

Any government agency established by the legislature is an extension of the legislature. When Congress establishes, for example, the EPA, and gives it regulatory power, it is delegating its powers to that agency. Anything that agency does, within the limits set by Congress, is essentially a law, subject to the limits of Congressional power but having the same force.

	11-12-2004 01:13									#341
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber On some things yes and on some things no. That answer stands if you mean superior as in "better" or "stronger" OR if you mean that they superseded provincial law. depending on the jurisdiction, the provinces can vary widely in their laws so they can be more or less stringent than the feds in areas where jurisdictions overlap.

I meant superseded. In our system, whenever Congress and the States have concurrent power, Congressional law is supreme.

	11-12-2004 01:14									#342
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Congress doesn't issue the permit. That is relegated normally to the EPA and then subsequently delegated to the local state Environmental Agencies.

As for consent, any new operation when applying for a permit must submit it for public comment. Any public comments/objections need to be addressed prior to issuance of the permit.

edit - xpost re: EPA/Congress

	11-12-2004 01:14									#343
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Good for Cuba, that's excellent. One advantage to a government-controlled research program is that you can focus it to work on a few things you find particularly important. In that regard, it can be considered superior to capitalism (since lots of private sector innovation could be called frivolous). I'll grant that. -Arrian

OTOH, look at stem cell research.

	11-12-2004 01:18									#344
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara There's social recognition: you could get a medal, have a day named in your honor, a park, a street, you could be bumped on the list for better housing as it becomes available, etc.

That works in the third grade. Most adults aren't going to devote huge amounts of effort for the shiny thing. In rare cases they will - but in those areas, we already have those as rewards (specifically science and athletics).

And the housing thing is basically money. You'll have a stratified society based on where you live

	11-12-2004 01:20									#345
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You're asking me to design a society.

Since you're the one complaining about the present state of affairs, it's pretty fair to ask you to suggest a material alternative...

	11-12-2004 01:24									#346
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara There's social recognition: you could get a medal, have a day named in your honor, a park, a street, you could be bumped on the list for better housing as it becomes available, etc. That works in the third grade. Most adults aren't going to devote huge amounts of effort for the shiny thing.

It works for lots of adults too. Adults jump through all kinds of hoops at work to earn the recognition of their peers without hope of material reward.

	11-12-2004 01:25									#347
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel You've clearly misunderstood me. That's the thing I was arguing against, a basic flaw in the consumer retail system.

Why? You're a utilitarian, aren't you? How better to gauge the utility value of an item than by how many people want it?

	11-12-2004 01:26									#348
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@ Che

And yet we glorify in films the renegade who doesn't give a flying flip what others think of him.

	11-12-2004 01:27									#349
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe You have no idea how much this represents. As an example, for a plant with a 10 MM operating budget annually one can easily expect the costs to exceed 5% and likely around 8-10%. That includes an environmental officer, testings, filings, permittings, systems maintenance, operating labor, downtime, waste disposal etc. Makes the opportunity to have start up facilities near non-existant. You see its not so much the shutting down of existing businesses and moving offshore. No its more the decision to re-invest capital into existing or startup businesses as these especially are the means of new job creation. You seems to harp on the evil mega-corporations but what you really harm/impact is the small companies that provide the most meaningful job growth potential.

I don't consider 5% that much to pay to reduce polution, but where do you come up with this number anyway?

	11-12-2004 01:27									#350
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Congress doesn't issue the permit. That is relegated normally to the EPA and then subsequently delegated to the local state Environmental Agencies.

The EPA was established by Congressional law and uses powers delegated to it by Congress. Same with the FCC - that's why something the FCC does can be unconstitutional, because if Congress doesn't have the power to do X, it doesn't have the power to erect an agency that does X.

	11-12-2004 01:28									#351
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quote: Why? You're a utilitarian, aren't you? How better to gauge the utility value of an item than by how many people want it?

The same reason that the liberty function is not the same as the utility function. The "free will" of the person, and his instinctive, short-time actions doesn't necessarily represent the best course of action for this person. And yes, I am so smart that I will decide this for them. Ha-ha.

	11-12-2004 01:28									#352
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I don't consider 5% that much to pay to reduce polution, but where do you come up with this number anyway?

Years and years of experience. 5% bounds typically the low end. My experience says it is normally much higher.

	11-12-2004 01:29									#353
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe @ Che And yet we glorify in films the renegade who doesn't give a flying flip what others think of him.

Just because we have a society that gloriyies the maverick doesn't mean we all want to be maveriks. We instinctively seek social recognition. It's a survival trait. Being a maverik may be cool, but it means you're likely die soon and alone. And that too is "cool."

	11-12-2004 01:29									#354
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker The EPA was established by Congressional law and uses powers delegated to it by Congress. Same with the FCC - that's why something the FCC does can be unconstitutional, because if Congress doesn't have the power to do X, it doesn't have the power to erect an agency that does X.

Just a quick question...

What ARE you on about?

-Arrian

	11-12-2004 01:30									#355
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: Why? You're a utilitarian, aren't you? How better to gauge the utility value of an item than by how many people want it? The same reason that the liberty function is not the same as the utility function. The "free will" of the person, and his instinctive, short-time actions doesn't necessarily represent the best course of action for this person. And yes, I am so smart that I will decide this for them. Ha-ha.

And people compalin about the consumer culture removing all independent thought...

	11-12-2004 01:30									#356
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Just because we have a society that gloriyies the maverick doesn't mean we all want to be maveriks. We instinctively seek social recognition. It's a survival trait. Being a maverik may be cool, but it means you're likely die soon and alone. And that too is "cool."

Films, after all, are fantasy. We can all imagine for a little while how "cool" it would be to be the maverick. Then we can climb back into our minivans and go home.

-Arrian

	11-12-2004 01:30									#357
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Just a quick question... What ARE you on about? -Arrian

I'm not sure.

	11-12-2004 01:30									#358
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Years and years of experience. 5% bounds typically the low end. My experience says it is normally much higher.

What is your job, if I may ask?

	11-12-2004 01:31									#359
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edit: @ Kuci. Crosspost.

-Arrian

	11-12-2004 01:32									#360
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker And people compalin about the consumer culture removing all independent thought...

Actually, it's not the consumer culture, generally, it's the advertising/PR section of it.