11-12-2004 01:33									#361
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Isn't that a pretty integral part of a consumer culture, though?

-Arrian

	11-12-2004 01:33									#362
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Yes, well you want to just remove the PR and even an illusion of choice.

	11-12-2004 01:33									#363
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: Why? You're a utilitarian, aren't you? How better to gauge the utility value of an item than by how many people want it? The same reason that the liberty function is not the same as the utility function. The "free will" of the person, and his instinctive, short-time actions doesn't necessarily represent the best course of action for this person. And yes, I am so smart that I will decide this for them. Ha-ha.

So how do you decide allocation without prices?

	11-12-2004 01:34									#364
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious What is your job, if I may ask?

Currently a brand manager, but was operations and plant manager for about 10 years.

Got tired of having to fire people in the name of cost cutting/competitiveness. (Believe me I know where costs are ) So I moved into more of a new brand development role.

	11-12-2004 01:34									#365
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No I am not.

quote: Isn't that a pretty integral part of a consumer culture, though? -Arrian

Yes, but I wanted to be specific. Oh, btw, advertising in it's current model.

	11-12-2004 01:37									#366
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quote: So how do you decide allocation without prices?

Who was talking about a lack of prices?

	11-12-2004 01:37									#367
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Paging Ming, paging Ming...

Advertising I'm absolutely with you there, Az.

I just generally scoff at it (or rant at it, which I admit is the most likely reaction).

-Arrian

	11-12-2004 01:39									#368
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Flubber: Why is natural gas so darn expensive then? I'm paying through the nose this winter.

Supply and demand

There isn't enough to meet all the demand out there adn its tough to bring new production on stream quickly. First there is the capital cost of building pipelines but the bigger delay is that there would be environmental hearings and conditions. I don't mind that . .. I like regulated capitalism . . . But it can result in delays in those projects

	11-12-2004 01:41									#369
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Well, you see, to me, is just one example of a thing that thrives in the free-market, but doesn't bring true value, i.e. doesn't deliver a true service of connecting needing customers to willing products, but "manufactures" need in customers, in order to boost sales.

	11-12-2004 01:42									#370
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What's wrong with that? If it ends up making people happier

	11-12-2004 01:43									#371
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Because the producers decided to stop storing it up during non-peak demand months. Gas flows at a particular rate all year long, so they save gas during the summer to sell it in the winter. Well, they decided a few years ago they could massively incresae their profits by artificially reducing supply. Happy capitalism.

Actually, gas is quite expensive to store so very little storage is done. The fear is that if you invest in massive storage, you could be undercut by the many many planned LNG projects and never make back your investment.

There is nothing stopping anyone at all from purchasing gas at the cheaper non-peak times and storing it themselves if you think that's economic.

Also supply is steadily increasing -- its demand thats going crazy

	11-12-2004 01:44									#372
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But it doesn't! It promises to make them happier, while, in fact, the value of happiness it brings is very small, and shortlived and can be replaced easily by other, more healthy activities.

	11-12-2004 01:48									#373
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: So how do you decide allocation without prices? Who was talking about a lack of prices?

Ok so you use prices, but you just don't pay attention to whether or not people buy at those prices? Don't you want to compare what people are willing to pay to how much it costs to produce the good or service?

	11-12-2004 01:49									#374
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It's very difficult to break a monopoly for gas, since you have to install pipes, and I doubt your competitors will share. One way to get around that is to install tanks and use trucks to cart the stuff around, though that carries physical risks.

Actually many pipes are not owned by the owners of the gas and anyone can pump gas through if they pay the regulated toll. The problem comes if all available pipelines are full. You cannot expect existing shippers to give up their capacity when they risked hundreds of millions on development costs and need to be shipping their gas to recoup their capital.

In Alberta msot of the major pipelines accept gas from literarally dozens of shippers and the major pipes are often the point where a producer will sell their gas to a gas marketing comapany.

	11-12-2004 01:50									#375
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Currently a brand manager, but was operations and plant manager for about 10 years. Got tired of having to fire people in the name of cost cutting/competitiveness. (Believe me I know where costs are ) So I moved into more of a new brand development role.

Interesting.

I found something on the net that says that environmental regulation is about 2% of GDP. Do you think that's acceptable?

	11-12-2004 01:55									#376
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: Originally posted by Flubber I disagree. The theory is that the damage to neighbors can't occur but for your operation. Yes, well, Congress should've taken that into account when giving you the permit.

I call bullcrap. IF all possible effects have to be accounted for, you would never do anything. Take oil storage. WE need oil and we need it to be stored so people will need permits. No matter where you put it there can be impacts on someone. An earthquake happens, there is an oil spill and the storage company pays for the damages to adjacent property owners. Simple really.

	11-12-2004 01:59									#377
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Years and years of experience. 5% bounds typically the low end. My experience says it is normally much higher.

I would say a cost of 5% on monitoring sounds right. Actually doing things to fix matters costs much more.

	11-12-2004 02:04									#378
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Interesting. I found something on the net that says that environmental regulation is about 2% of GDP. Do you think that's acceptable?

That would probably be right when you consider the vast number of service industries that face little to no environmental regulation. THis might suggest an even higher number than 5% for manufacturing or resource industries

	11-12-2004 02:07									#379
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Any government agency established by the legislature is an extension of the legislature. When Congress establishes, for example, the EPA, and gives it regulatory power, it is delegating its powers to that agency. Anything that agency does, within the limits set by Congress, is essentially a law, subject to the limits of Congressional power but having the same force.

If I accept this . .. so what? You can do things completely within your permits but if your acts cause direct damage to another, you will be liable.

Also in your example, a permit from one government body does not absolve you from meeting the regulatory requirements of that and any other regulatory body

	11-12-2004 02:10									#380
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber That would probably be right when you consider the vast number of service industries that face little to no environmental regulation. THis might suggest an even higher number than 5% for manufacturing or resource industries

Which is good. Services have more value in that they don't create as much polution.

	11-12-2004 02:10									#381
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Addition on gas pipelines.

Most regulated pipelines carry expansion provisions so a new shipper can trigger a process to bring about an expansion if they can show that the tolls for existing shippers will not increase as a result-- Oh and all shippers are supposed to be offered the same shipping rates for a given volume of fixed capacity. Parties can also get smaller amounts on , on an interruptible basis but a major producer needs fixed capacity

	11-12-2004 02:13									#382
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Which is good. Services have more value in that they don't create as much polution.

Interesting concept-- Although a service provider myself, I can easily see we NEED manufacturing, agriculture, oil exploration and production.

That is . . .. unless you want us to all be in equally spacious caves, wearing nothing but animal skins

	11-12-2004 02:16									#383
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quote: Ok so you use prices, but you just don't pay attention to whether or not people buy at those prices? Don't you want to compare what people are willing to pay to how much it costs to produce the good or service?

I pay attention, however it's not the only think I look at. I factor it in.

	11-12-2004 02:16									#384
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Interesting. I found something on the net that says that environmental regulation is about 2% of GDP. Do you think that's acceptable?

Maybe, but you need consider that manufacturing is not the lion share of GDP. Service sector far outstrips manufacturing.

I'ld be interested in any study that shows it as a function of manufacturing.

edit - xpost with Flubber (Actually just didn't read his response ) But to add to what he syas. The number I quoted at 5% being the lower bounds assumes you have your operationin good shape. For startups plagued with training issues, quality conerns etc. environmental/waste costs can rapidly escalate out of control.

	11-12-2004 02:19									#385
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: Ok so you use prices, but you just don't pay attention to whether or not people buy at those prices? Don't you want to compare what people are willing to pay to how much it costs to produce the good or service? I pay attention, however it's not the only think I look at. I factor it in.

	11-12-2004 02:22									#386
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Maybe, but you need consider that manufacturing is not the lion share of GDP. Service sector far outstrips manufacturing. I'ld be interested in any study that shows it as a function of manufacturing.

But we pay 2% of our income for cleaner environment. We could get more for our money I'm sure, but I think it's worth it. Manufacturers will make about the same amount of profit as the service providers. Some will go out of business and go into service industry. That's the way the economy is suppose to work.

	11-12-2004 02:25									#387
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We still haven't dealt with the corporate flight problem yet. That's the tough challenge, IMO.

-Arrian

	11-12-2004 02:28									#388
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious But we pay 2% of our income for cleaner environment. We could get more for our money I'm sure, but I think it's worth it.

If you say so. Believe me if you have to deal with the regs and interpret them most of the cost is not for actual polllution control but moreover the means to limit liability via documentation, reporting etc.

	11-12-2004 02:32									#389
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian We still haven't dealt with the corporate flight problem yet. That's the tough challenge, IMO. -Arrian

Its a tough nut to crack. There are plenty of reasons for corporate flight (lower labor costs, foreign country incentives, proximity to key materials, etc.). My point was giving yet another reason does not IMO seem wise council, especially considering the politically charged issue of high paying manufacturing jobs leaving country.

	11-12-2004 02:33									#390
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe If you say so. Believe me if you have to deal with the regs and interpret them most of the cost is not for actual polllution control but moreover the means to limit liability via documentation, reporting etc.

Unfortunately that is part of the cost of pollution control. You just need some of those things, although maybe some of it is unnecessary. You know more about that I'm sure, but you do need to pay people to interpret the regs and do paper work.