13-12-2004 00:29									#481
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious You just don't know what you are talking about. L-F has nothing to do with harming people without their consent. It is simply a philosophy of leaving the economy alone. That's it.

It's a philosophy of not regulating the market beyond the obvious necessity of preventing coercion and enforcing contracts. Without those two, it's just anarchy.

	13-12-2004 00:29									#482
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It's hardly that easy, you know..... there is no organizational infrastructure. Here, we have some 90 real communes.

	13-12-2004 00:32									#483
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Indeed, and as I've said, some communistic ideals work well in small tribal groupings, so that's good if they're thriving.

As to setting one up...it would take some work, granted.

But I would think that if these aforementioned highly successful lefties REALLY believed what they were saying, it would be more than worth the effort to found or join one, for them.

But they're not.

This suggests one of two things:

1) Either not many highly successful people subscribe to the notion

or

2) They talk the talk but don't really believe it (at least not enough to give up their current lifestyle for it)

True?

-=Vel=-

	13-12-2004 00:37									#484
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker It's a philosophy of not regulating the market beyond the obvious necessity of preventing coercion and enforcing contracts. Without those two, it's just anarchy.

No it's not. It's assumed that the market takes care of these things. Why do you have this idea about L-F?

	13-12-2004 00:39									#485
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You go on a tangeant here.

a) How many hardcore leftists are there? I am not talking about social democrats,etc., I am talking about true leftists.
b) How many believe in the idea of relatively small communes? ( Even I am not a straight favourite of them, I just want to move since it will give me an opportunity to live in a kind of a social enviroment I want to live in, in a way that decisions are made together, etc. )

After all of those gates, you see that the number of people that are left, all conditions are against the setting up of a commune. AND STILL, some people form them!

	13-12-2004 00:49									#486
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx 1) Either not many highly successful people subscribe to the notion

People who are successfull capitalists? Of course not. The thing you are missing is that capitalists are parasites. We don't need that kind of personal success. We need success for society.

	13-12-2004 00:57									#487
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Actually, I am certain that many successful capitalists also subscribe to that. I swear to god .

	13-12-2004 00:59									#488
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'Zazel - I wouldn't know, but I'll bet Che would. I have no idea how large the red party is here in the states. Large enough tho, to be sure, to form a commune.

Again tho, the point is that this is not what is occuring (your original point re: lots of successful people subscribing to the big red notion). My point is, if that were so, then why aren't they living the life?

I submit to you that either they're posing, or there are not, in fact, many people in that category who are true believers.

Kid: from webster's, the definition of parasite: An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host.

One who habitually takes advantage of the generosity of others without making any useful return.
One who lives off and flatters the rich

Sounds more like the description of the society you're pushing for. A society OF parasites.

Capitalists are enablers. Take your blinders off. Come out in the sun for a while. Stop being so angry at the world and come live fully in it.



-=Vel=-

	13-12-2004 01:00									#489
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Actually, I am certain that many successful capitalists also subscribe to that. I swear to god .

Joking? They seem to measure success purely by their bank account. Isn't that what Vel and aheemn are talking about?

	13-12-2004 01:04									#490
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Kid: from webster's, the definition of parasite: An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host. One who habitually takes advantage of the generosity of others without making any useful return. One who lives off and flatters the rich Sounds more like the description of the society you're pushing for. A society OF parasites. Capitalists are enablers. Take your blinders off. Come out in the sun for a while. Stop being so angry at the world and come live fully in it. -=Vel=-

How the hell is working for a living being a parasite?

	13-12-2004 01:04									#491
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quote: Again tho, the point is that this is not what is occuring (your original point re: lots of successful people subscribing to the big red notion). My point is, if that were so, then why aren't they living the life? I submit to you that either they're posing, or there are not, in fact, many people in that category who are true believers.

The vast majority of people don't live to achieve their dreams( their amazing dreams, not the white picket fence and an SUV, and the occasional vacation ) . That's true of any person, communist or not. It creates a real amazing person to do this thing from scratch. Just imagine having to start a company with no banks, or currency, in a communist society where you could live very well, happily, and most of the people despise the notion of capitalism.

	13-12-2004 01:07									#492
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Nope, Kid. Again, your blinders cause you to entirely miss the point.

You can't MAKE people care. You can't force altruism.

If you try, you end up...well, with exactly what every commie experiment has ended up with.

A big lotta nothing.

What you can do tho, is to create a system where each man or woman takes PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for his or her own success in life, and make opportunities available.

Because economics is not a sum-zero game, the pie gets bigger as more people succeed.

When that happens, the social safety net that's in place becomes increasingly robust, and more and more people are lifted up, as the standard of living rises across the board.

What you find is that most (not all, to be sure) but most people who HAVE extra will give. Will pitch in to help out.

And where that falls short, we've got the social safety net in place.

Why are you so afraid of personal success?

This is mystifying to me.

Why is it so bad to hold a person responsible and accountable for his or her successes in life?

We are held accountable for being on time for work. We are held accountable for turning our homework in. In all areas of life, there is personal responsibility and accountability. Why should this be any different?

And yet you would craft a society where you are no longer responsible for your own well being. Let the state take care of everything. So it comes with the price tag of being told where and how to live.

Apparently, you're okay with that (or you see yourself as being one of the party bosses, in which case you will be given special consideration).

I, on the other hand, am NOT okay with it.

I don't want you, or Che or anyone else dictating to me what I need, or how I should live my life.

You go live your life, and I'll stay over here and live mine. 'k?

-=Vel=-

	13-12-2004 01:09									#493
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Joking? They seem to measure success purely by their bank account. Isn't that what Vel and aheemn are talking about?

I was using "capitalists" not in the sense of holding the ideology, but role in society.

	13-12-2004 01:10									#494
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Hey! But after you steal all the stuff from the capitalist pig dogs, you won't have to work! Magically, the all knowing and benevolent state will $hit whatever money is needed to build you anything you want.

You can get some cushy do-nothing (or maybe even a work at home job) and stay cozied up in the People's Housing Project Number 3454350-B11 all day with your kerosene lamps, while the Missus goes out to wait in the breadline for a couple days.

Life will be PERFECT!

As to people living their dreams....this too, mystifies me.

I am. Wouldn't have it any other way. I can't imagine anyone of means NOT doing likewise.

And Kid, parasites leech off the system. Your fronted plan will create an entire society that leeches off the state run system. Parasitic to the core.

-=Vel=-

	13-12-2004 01:11									#495
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel I was using "capitalists" not in the sense of holding the ideology, but role in society.

I have to disagree with you. I don't think capitalists measure success any other way than my their bank account.

	13-12-2004 01:14									#496
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Ahem....earlier I was accused of telling other people what they believe.

Pot...meet Kettle?

I just TOLD you what I believe! And I am one of the vile monsters you so fervently despise!

Yeah...LOTS to despise there. Wanting people to succeed on their own.

Utterly despicable, I know.

-=Vel=-

	13-12-2004 01:16									#497
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious No it's not. It's assumed that the market takes care of these things. Why do you have this idea about L-F?

L-F doesn't assume that the market takes care of policing contracts, etc... L-F is based upon obligation of contracts and freedom from coercion.

	13-12-2004 01:17									#498
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quote: I have to disagree with you. I don't think capitalists measure success any other way than my their bank account.

Capitalists are people, too. One could start a bussiness, and run with it. hey, it could even happen to you, or me, or anyone else. Doesn't mean that one doesn't believe in the same ideals. Jefferson owned slaves, and all that.

	13-12-2004 01:17									#499
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Why are you so afraid of personal success? This is mystifying to me. Why is it so bad to hold a person responsible and accountable for his or her successes in life? We are held accountable for being on time for work. We are held accountable for turning our homework in. In all areas of life, there is personal responsibility and accountability. Why should this be any different?

Because you measure success by how much money you make, and when you make money off of me I tend to notice, especially when you don't do anything worth a **** to get it. All you do is take advantage of an opportunity to exploit me. Why the hell should I hold that idea of personal responisiblity. That's nothing but BS, and we see through that. It's not hard.

quote: And yet you would craft a society where you are no longer responsible for your own well being. Let the state take care of everything. So it comes with the price tag of being told where and how to live. Apparently, you're okay with that (or you see yourself as being one of the party bosses, in which case you will be given special consideration).

Blah Blah Blah. I've said plenty of times that I don't believe in a society where people can just live like parasites, you just won't let it go.

	13-12-2004 01:18									#500
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I have to disagree with you. I don't think capitalists measure success any other way than my their bank account.

Carnegie. Pwned.

	13-12-2004 01:18									#501
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500th post!

	13-12-2004 01:21									#502
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Cap/Com strikes again.

moving to the other thread, I guess...

	13-12-2004 01:22									#503
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Nope...I sure won't let it go, Kid, because your core points are absolutely 180 degrees from the reality.

Here in the real world, Capitalists enable wealth to be created. That has value. You may choose not to recognize or acknowledge it. You may choose to scoff and call it "non-work" but the reality is, it's d@mned hard.

Have you ever tried? If not, how can you condemn something as not being work just becuase it doesn't look and feel like ditch digging?

Go experience it first, then come back and tell me it ain't work.

-=Vel=-

	13-12-2004 01:24									#504
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Well, Vel, the problem with your position, is you think that only capitalists can enable wealth to be created.

	13-12-2004 01:25									#505
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker L-F doesn't assume that the market takes care of policing contracts, etc... L-F is based upon obligation of contracts and freedom from coercion.

I'm asking you where you got this idea. The literal translation from French means hands off. So where do you get the idea that it means otherwise?

	13-12-2004 01:27									#506
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Nope...I sure won't let it go, Kid, because your core points are absolutely 180 degrees from the reality.

That's why Che isn't talking to you about it. You're being a real *******, and you aren't making any points, because you are stuck on this crap.

	13-12-2004 02:52									#507
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I'm asking you where you got this idea. The literal translation from French means hands off. So where do you get the idea that it means otherwise?

quote: lais·sez faire n. 1. An economic doctrine that opposes governmental regulation of or interference in commerce beyond the minimum necessary for a free-enterprise system to operate according to its own economic laws. 2. Noninterference in the affairs of others.

Obviously it requires two things: enforcement of the obligation of contracts and prevention of coercion. Pollution is coercion.

	13-12-2004 05:29									#508
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: lais·sez faire n. 1. An economic doctrine that opposes governmental regulation of or interference in commerce beyond the minimum necessary for a free-enterprise system to operate according to its own economic laws. 2. Noninterference in the affairs of others. Obviously it requires two things: enforcement of the obligation of contracts and prevention of coercion. Pollution is coercion.

A free-enterprise system can function without polution control now can't it? It did for a long time.

	13-12-2004 05:32									#509
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It can operate for a long time without a lot of things. It doesn't mean they aren't an inherent part of L-F.

	13-12-2004 05:35									#510
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According to the definition that you posted. Polution control is not L-F, because it is beyond the minimum necessary for a free-enterprise system to operate.