12-12-2004 06:52									#451
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Vel,

You are going to see flaws in our philosophy, because it's hostile toward you. That's to be expected. But if you want to have polite conversation with knowledgable people you're going to have to be civil.

	12-12-2004 06:53									#452
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When was I uncivil, exactly?

When I pointed out the fact that Che point-blank said he wanted to dictate to me what I need, or when I pointed out (as you yourself have on NUMEROUS occasions) that interest is bad?

How is that uncivil?

-=Vel=-

	12-12-2004 06:55									#453
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Che and I...and you and I, for that matter, have had a number of right civil conversations. I've learned a great deal about your beliefs from those discussions. Among the things I have learned is that I don't belong in a society such as yours, I would not be happy there, there is no PLACE for me in your future, and because of that, I will fight tooth and nail to resist it. If you think I should simply roll over and let your "utopia" (and I use the term VERY loosely) win, you're outta your ever-lovin' mind. -=Vel=-

I don't think anyone here expects you to become a communist. That doesn't mean that you can't have a civil discusion on the matter.

	12-12-2004 06:59									#454
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You need to try to figure out exactly what people are arguing and what they mean, not just twist their words. It's the responsibility of the listener to do that. That's called civil discussion. Hostile discussion is when you just twist peoples words.

	12-12-2004 07:14									#455
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From Che: We're not gonna be stealing people's homes. Okay, maybe if you have two or more, but you don't need more than one home.

Not much twisting going on there, I'd say. Not too many ways to interpret that.

And the other key point....Interest/Rent = Bad thing.

Again I ask...how is pointing out both of the above uncivil?

How is it "twisting" the words spoken?

-=Vel=-
_{and you say *I* don't read!}

	12-12-2004 07:18									#456
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With a mantra including both of the above, what *really* gets me is that you seem genuinely surprised when people AREN'T just tripping all over themselves to sign up! :: shakes head::

-=Vel=-

	12-12-2004 11:55									#457
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx With a mantra including both of the above, what *really* gets me is that you seem genuinely surprised when people AREN'T just tripping all over themselves to sign up! :: shakes head:: -=Vel=-

If you have three houses of course you aren't likely to be a communist.

	12-12-2004 11:58									#458
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Which means that successful people are not likely to be communist . Figures . . . . . . . . . .

	12-12-2004 15:01									#459
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And how do you suppose I got them? Am I just THAT much smarter/better/faster than you?

NO!

You and I prolly have similar educational backgrounds. I grew up in a VERY poor household (lived out of our red station wagon more than once....I remember spending more than a couple Christmases in the back of our wagon/house eating beans out of a friggin' can.

You can't GET much worse of a start than that, dude.

So...what? Am I some sort of financial wiz kid? A magician?

Hardly.

I got where I am IN SPITE of some really, collossally stupid moves on my part. Some King-Sized, Royal screw ups, and I STILL managed to make good.

That's how easy it is.

Granted, I coulda been a LOT farther had I not wasted so much time and screwed up here and there, but that's beside the point.

You and your Comrades make the system out to be some hellish, demonic slave pit, when the reality is that NOTHING could be further from the truth.

If a know-nothin', from-nothin' guy like me can make good without really TRYING (disclaimer: It was hard WORK, mind you, but it wasn't even what I set out to DO!), then that's a strong argument that most anybody can make it.

I could give you...GIVE you step by step instructions on how to do EXACTLY the same, and prolly better, on account of your not having to make all the stupid mistakes along the way.

But even if I did...even if I spelled it all out for you, I suspect you woulnd't do the first thing with the information.

Oh no....much easier to complain about how unfair the system is. Much easier to bemoan your current prediciment and daydream about a revolution that isn't coming than to actually go out and DO something.

I went through a similar spell...I know firsthand. Granted, I never went through a RED spell, but I've been in dark corners before.

If you are even REMOTELY interested in doing something other than daydreaming of the revolution, I can show you the way. It takes all of two things.

1) Determination
and
2) An honest effort/willingness to change/try new things

If you can do those two things, you're halfway home.

-=Vel=-

	12-12-2004 18:13									#460
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ugh, vel, honestly, I don't get you.

I *will* succeed in the current system. I am not afraid for myself, for the most part. This doesn't mean that I can't believe that a radical change in the way things are done will improve the lives of all for the best. I am sooo sick of the portrayal of the left by the right as a bunch of people who couldn't make it on their own, and who try to whine their way through. Some of the best leftists, actually some of the best people I've ever known are very strong individuals who are very self-reliant, and self-sufficient. I don't think it's contradictory. It actually helps, no matter what ideology.

	12-12-2004 21:34									#461
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: I refuted this pages and pages ago. The aim of individuals, in any system, is to externalize their costs onto others. And in a minority of cases the "invisible hand" works to ensure that they in fact benefit others. The problem is that this is the exception rather than the rule, as is evidenced by the mass of laws and enforcement agencies that every developed society enjoys. In the most important fields of human interest, the "invisible hand" works to destroy rather than create, as is evidenced by our sad record on the environment and our trouble feeding ourselves among other things.

Uh, you missed the point that externalizing your costs onto others (which is harming them without their consent) is by necessity illegal in a true L-F system.

	12-12-2004 21:34									#462
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Obviously you need manufactured products. They just aren't as valuable to society as the free market would dictate.

Why not?

	12-12-2004 21:54									#463
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Why not?

Because making them creates more polution.

	12-12-2004 21:56									#464
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Uh, you missed the point that externalizing your costs onto others (which is harming them without their consent) is by necessity illegal in a true L-F system.

No it's not. Forcing people not to is contrary to L-F.

	12-12-2004 21:58									#465
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx If you are even REMOTELY interested in doing something other than daydreaming of the revolution, I can show you the way. It takes all of two things.

****ing *******. You think I sit around on my ass all day day dreaming. **** you. I was trying to talk to you for your beneift. If you are going to act like this then **** you.

	12-12-2004 22:01									#466
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious No it's not. Forcing people not to is contrary to L-F.

Polluting is harming others without their consent. Harming others without their consent - be it theft, murder, or pollution - is by definition illegal under L-F. We've been over this.

	12-12-2004 22:02									#467
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Because making them creates more polution.

So can services.

	12-12-2004 22:10									#468
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Polluting is harming others without their consent. Harming others without their consent - be it theft, murder, or pollution - is by definition illegal under L-F. We've been over this.

I know we have, but L-F simply means hands off.

quote: So can services.

Well we were talking about how pollution control costs 2% of GDP when most of that cost is in manufacturing. Why do you think services create more pollution and why don't they have pollution control costs?

	12-12-2004 22:13									#469
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Vel,

I think you have some diminished mental capacity. I don't know why you carry on like this. You are very offensive, and you don't get it when people try to talk to you about it.

	12-12-2004 22:29									#470
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I know we have, but L-F simply means hands off.

It means no government regulation of the market. Laws against murder, fraud, theft, etc. are not against L-F - it is absolutely fundamental to L-F that coercion (which is caused by harm to others without their consent) be illegal, otherwise L-F would just be anarchy. Pollution is harm to others without their consent, therefore it is banned under L-F.

quote: Well we were talking about how pollution control costs 2% of GDP when most of that cost is in manufacturing. Why do you think services create more pollution and why don't they have pollution control costs?

Doesn't shipping count as services? Think of all the trucks moving around

	12-12-2004 22:50									#471
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'zazel....mmmm...I agree and disagree. After all, you see so many of our best and our brightest giving up their second (and first, for that matter) homes to go live in communes, yes?

Kid: IF it is offensive to point out the simple fact that the rules in place are NOT as you describe. Not slavery, not unfair, not arbitrary. IF it is offensive to point out that there is another way besides tearing down the entire system without having the first CLUE about what you'll do next. IF it is offensive to suggest that yes, I might have a problem with you and Che running every aspect of my daily life...then so be it. I guess you'll just have to get offended.

Interesting though, that you can take offense at all of that, and call ME a moron and expect I won't take offense.

How very typical.

-=Vel=

	12-12-2004 23:15									#472
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I know we have, but L-F simply means hands off. It means no government regulation of the market. Laws against murder, fraud, theft, etc. are not against L-F - it is absolutely fundamental to L-F that coercion (which is caused by harm to others without their consent) be illegal, otherwise L-F would just be anarchy. Pollution is harm to others without their consent, therefore it is banned under L-F.

But regulating murder has nothing to do with the market. Polution control regulates the market.

quote: Doesn't shipping count as services? Think of all the trucks moving around

True

	12-12-2004 23:27									#473
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quote: zazel....mmmm...I agree and disagree. After all, you see so many of our best and our brightest giving up their second (and first, for that matter) homes to go live in communes, yes?

How many running communes do you know, in your county, non-hippie ones? I actually plan to move to a Kibbutz once I end my military service, so that I'd continue working, and give my share to the Kibbutz.

	13-12-2004 00:02									#474
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious But regulating murder has nothing to do with the market.

Yes it does. The market for hitmen.

quote: Polution control regulates the market.

No more than regulating murder does, as above.

	13-12-2004 00:07									#475
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There are about a dozen, scattered over NA and Europe....maybe more, but that's what a quick search revealed. In any case, what, I wonder, is keeping these highly successful folk from starting one of their own? That seems the likliest place to begin, if that is indeed the goal and belief.

And yet...this is not what is happening.

I suspect I know why, and I suspect you do to!

-=Vel=-

	13-12-2004 00:09									#476
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx There are about a dozen, scattered over NA and Europe....maybe more, but that's what a quick search revealed. In any case, what, I wonder, is keeping these highly successful folk from starting one of their own? That seems the likliest place to begin, if that is indeed the goal and belief. And yet...this is not what is happening. I suspect I know why, and I suspect you do to! -=Vel=-

Umm, because there aren't many lefties around? duh.

	13-12-2004 00:16									#477
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Yes it does. The market for hitmen.

Ok Kuci.

	13-12-2004 00:18									#478
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Ok Kuci.

Pollution is harming others without their consent. Harming others without their consent is necessarily illegal under L-F. Pollution is necessarily illegal under L-F. How difficult is that?

	13-12-2004 00:23									#479
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Pollution is harming others without their consent. Harming others without their consent is necessarily illegal under L-F. Pollution is necessarily illegal under L-F. How difficult is that?

You just don't know what you are talking about. L-F has nothing to do with harming people without their consent. It is simply a philosophy of leaving the economy alone. That's it.

	13-12-2004 00:27									#480
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Ahh but there are. Certainly more than enough to form a commune.

After all, there are party meetings all across the country. Instead of meeting and talking about it, the folks who believe could...put their money where their mouth is, as it were. Start a commune. Make it work small-scale.

Not nearly as much fun as plotting revolution, I realize, but it's a practical application of the beliefs, which seems to me, would be more important.

-=Vel=-
_{unless, and this is entirely within the realm of possibility too, what they REALLY enjoy most is hearing themselves talk about it}