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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:17
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Takers.
That is the essential essence of communism as you have collectively explained it here.
Systematic takers.
Simply take what you cannot, or will not create for yourselves "for the good of all."
Take by force (or any available means) that which you cannot or will not create for yourself.
The rules of the game are spelled out and equitable.
Everyone has an opportunity to excel. Everyone has an opportunity to succeed.
What you do with that opportunity is entirely up to you. Freedom of choice. Freedom of mobility. Freedom to live your life as YOU see fit, and not have the state tell you what you do or do not need.
If you choose NOT to play the game by the equitable rules set forth, it does not mean that the rules are somehow unfair, or preventing you from playing, only that your own stubbornness and shortsightedness are preventing you from recognizing and grasping the opportunity at hand.
That then, is no one's fault but your own.
Labor is not the end all, by the way.
VALUE is the core that is missed by your paradigm, and there are MANY fascets of value, including labor.
There is value in knowledge and expertise. There is value in making resources available for the completion of a project that could not otherwise even be begun.
As both of these things create value that ENABLES labor to move forward, both of these things can be, and should be compensated.
That your system denies this fundamental truth is another of its manifold failings.
It is a house fashioned of smoke, relying on the tired, worn out words of an angry man from a long time ago, when the world was a very different place.
Market dynamics can be largely subverted. They were in soviet russia. They were in China. And yet, the black market thrived.
China's economy only took off after they began embracing market principles, which says volumes about the failings of the planned system.
And as always, you shy from specifics.
It is either because you don't know, or because you HAVE no plan.
In either case, it is clear evidence that if the revolution happened tomorrow, it would happen in slipshod, fly-by-the-seat of your pants fashion, and as a direct result of that near-total lack of foresight and planning, it would be every bit as thuggish and brutal as the other two major revolutions that came before it.
In short, you guys are nowhere close to being "ready" for the glorious revolution, and I pray that it never comes, because it will set this planet back two centuries or more, nearly overnight.
-=Vel=-
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Kidicious
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Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Velociryx
In short, you guys are nowhere close to being "ready" for the glorious revolution, and I pray that it never comes, because it will set this planet back two centuries or more, nearly overnight.
-=Vel=- |
It doesn't matter if we are ready. When we have our shot we will take it. Ready or not. We won't allow things to continue like this. Your sensational talk may rally your troops but it only makes us more willing to take a risk and pursue a better world - a world without capitalism.
edit: It never was about our plan. It has always been about your plan. Our goal is to end your plans Vel. When we do we will do the best we can with our plans.
Last edited by Kidicious on 11-12-2004 at 23:47
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:17
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Nope....and I'm assuming you don't either. After all, even if the state "owns" everything, it still takes resources (money and materials) to build the factories that the "non-exploited" workers will labor forcibly in.
This requires SOME mechanism of raising fundage for those purposes...taxes seem the most logical means of doing so. Which of course means, that the laborers under said system will be taxed, thereby denying them a portion of the fruits of their labor. This in turn, smacks of the VERY exploitation you seek to avoid. Laborers NOT getting the full fruits of their work?! Oh the humanity!
You see...it is entirely unavoidable BECAUSE labor is NOT the end-all, be-all. Value is comprised of more things than sweat labor, and this is the point at which the entire on-paper system falls apart.
Well...one of the many, actually.
As to Kid's latest posting:
So you mean to undo the current system...unbuild it overnight WITHOUT a solid plan to replace it. This is a surefire recipie for anarchy which will cost untold thousands, if not MILLIONS of lives. HUMAN lives...you know...the very lives of the people you purport to be rescuing.
Something tells me that if THIS is your grand plan...essentially to wing it and hope everything comes out okay in the end, it will be every bit as spectactular a failure as the previous two major communist revolutions.
Revolutions, like any other undertaking, require planning and forethought. So far, I have seen a great reluctance of daring to engage in such forethought, writing it off as "mere speculation."
I ask you...without such "speculation" how will you have the first CLUE as to how to proceed.
You will be, from the first moment of the "Revolution" reduced to mere reactionism.
Not a stellar beginning.
-=Vel=-
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:17
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Obviously you need manufactured products. They just aren't as valuable to society as the free market would dictate.
Ummm...methinks you miss the ENTIRE point of the Free Market.
I'll break it down for you. First word...Free. That means free from constraints. Unencumbered. The people participating IN the free market are likewise unconstrained. They may make whatever decisions they wish. IF manufactured goods are seen as important, it is because the PEOPLE who are IN the market, making decisions about what to do with their dollars have DECIDED that manufactured goods are important (and they did it allllllll by themselves...imagine that!)
Second word. Market. An analogy, in this case, for the sum-total of places where goods are bought, sold, traded, bartered, etc. Stores, flea markets, you name it. Places where people go to acquire stuff.
In and of itself, the market DICTATES nothing. The market is merely a mechanism which responds and answers to the will and desires of those participating in it. Your argument is incoherent.
As to thinking...yes. I'm sure you have. Trouble is, idle daydreaming is a very different beast than is coming up with a viable, workable, step-by-step plan for when the day arrives. Of that, we have seen scant evidence indeed, and what we HAVE seen looks eerily like "more of the same" old junk that didn't work the various other times it's been tried.
-=Vel=-
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Kidicious
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Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Velociryx
Obviously you need manufactured products. They just aren't as valuable to society as the free market would dictate.
Ummm...methinks you miss the ENTIRE point of the Free Market.
I'll break it down for you. First word...Free. That means free from constraints. Unencumbered. The people participating IN the free market are likewise unconstrained. They may make whatever decisions they wish. IF manufactured goods are seen as important, it is because the PEOPLE who are IN the market, making decisions about what to do with their dollars have DECIDED that manufactured goods are important (and they did it allllllll by themselves...imagine that!)
Second word. Market. An analogy, in this case, for the sum-total of places where goods are bought, sold, traded, bartered, etc. Stores, flea markets, you name it. Places where people go to acquire stuff.
In and of itself, the market DICTATES nothing. The market is merely a mechanism which responds and answers to the will and desires of those participating in it. Your argument is incoherent.
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 Why don't you read the thread if you are going to interject into other people's conversation. You don't know what we are talking about.
quote:
As to thinking...yes. I'm sure you have. Trouble is, idle daydreaming is a very different beast than is coming up with a viable, workable, step-by-step plan for when the day arrives. Of that, we have seen scant evidence indeed, and what we HAVE seen looks eerily like "more of the same" old junk that didn't work the various other times it's been tried.
-=Vel=- |
Well you want us to fail so I'll let you speculate about that. Nothing I can say really about it.
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11-12-2004 14:55
) argue for anything approaching absolute L-F capitalism.
my point is that a permit is a legislative act saying you may do X. It makes no sense for something then to be liable for damages that occur through them doing X in a completely non-negligent way.
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