08-12-2004 13:24									#1
	The torture thread! Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I have decided that forcing children to wear shoes is torture so I will now run around writting articles and posting threads declaring that all the countries of the first and second world are torturing their children. I realize that international laws do not back up my basesless claims but I shall never the less insist on calling every parent who makes their children wear shoes a torturer.

DOWN WITH THE TORTURERS!

	08-12-2004 13:25									#2
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Gee, that sounds familiar. Where could I have heard similar logic being used before?

	08-12-2004 13:26									#3
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The clarification post was uncalled for.

	08-12-2004 13:28									#4
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my precciiiiiiooooouusssssssssssssssssss

	08-12-2004 15:12									#5
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Not reading the post, but let me gues:
Who defines what torutre is? What is "a bit beating"?...

	08-12-2004 15:42									#6
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Does the Second World exist anymore? I thought it was the Developed and the Developing nations these days.

	08-12-2004 15:43									#7
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Torture
Unpatriotic hippies opposing it

	08-12-2004 16:24									#8
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Torture

Redefining torture to be what ever you want.

	08-12-2004 16:24									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Starchild Does the Second World exist anymore? I thought it was the Developed and the Developing nations these days.

China, North Korea, Cuba, Loas, Vietnam?

	08-12-2004 16:25									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III Not reading the post, but let me gues: Who defines what torutre is? What is "a bit beating"?...

Way off. But way to go. Don't listen to anyone else bury your head in the sand and pretend that your view is the only view. Political bias is great because it means there is no need to logically argue anything.

	08-12-2004 16:26									#11
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You want me to report my quotations of the Geneva convention here?

	08-12-2004 16:28									#12
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Anyways here all al the official answers:

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu2/i2civtor.htm

	08-12-2004 19:46									#13
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius You want me to report my quotations of the Geneva convention here?

Nope, please allow me.

Part 1 article 1, 2, & 3 of the 3rd Geneva convention in 1949 states that the Geneva Convention applies during all times of declared war or armed conflict further more the Geneva Convention and all duly ratified subsequent conventions (the only ones duly ratified are the various subsequent Geneva and Hague conventions) make up the supreme law of war which take precedence over all other treaties, proclamations, agreements, or national laws. That means that in times of war or armed conflict the Geneva & Hague conventions are the supreme international law concerning the rights and responsibilities of warring parties.

Ok, that is clear enough. The Geneva Convention is the supreme law of war and defines all conduct as legal or illegal. Let us continue.

Part 3 defines who is a prisoner of war and who is an unlawful combatant. It also expressly excludes all unlawful combatants from any and all protections afforded by the Geneva and Hague Conventions. This was to reward people who followed the laws of war and to punish those persons who broke the laws of war. The big condition associated with Taliban and Al Qaeda fighters is that they do not wear internationally recognized military uniforms while conducting military operations; doing so is an express condition of being considered a lawful combatant. Since unlawful combatants are expressly excluded from the protections of the Geneva Convention, and the Geneva Convention is the internationally recognized supreme law of war, thus it is perfectly legal to line unlawful combatants up against a wall and have them shot. The US has generously opted to waive this right and instead elects to intern these unlawful combatants for the duration of armed hostilities.

The Geneva Convention defines torture as the undue and purposeful infliction of physical or mental anguish upon prisoners without necessary cause or for the enjoyment of captors. Further more use of necessary restraints and blindfolding are authorized to prevent the discovery of military secrets as is the use of solitary confinement to punish prisoners.

	08-12-2004 19:49									#14
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Correct me if I'm wrong but the UN Commision on Human Rights falls under the definition of other "treaties, proclamations, agreements, or national laws" so the Geneva Convention should take precedence during times of war or armed conflict.

After all every signatory power has agreed that the Geneva and Hague Conventions are the "Supreme" law of war and that when in conflict with other "treaties, proclamations, agreements, or national laws" the GC should take precedence.

Does anyone doubt that the wars in Iraq or Afghanistan fall under the definition of "wars or armed conflicts"?

	08-12-2004 19:52									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Starchild Does the Second World exist anymore? I thought it was the Developed and the Developing nations these days.

The Second World was the Soviet Bloc. It doesn't exist anymore.

	08-12-2004 19:53									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin China, North Korea, Cuba, Loas, Vietnam?

Those are all Third World nations.

	08-12-2004 19:55									#17
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Oh quite whinning, Oerdin. Imran mentioned the UN Convention on Tortore, to which the U.S. is a signatory. We ratified it, it is U.S. Law.

	08-12-2004 19:55									#18
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So... basically your argument is that they aren't being tortured but if the US wanted to torture them it'd be perfectly legal? If that's true - and I won't bother disputing your definition of them as unlawful combatants in this thread - it's still pretty disgusting. Months on end in solitary? Beatings? With no trials, no representation? Keeping the Red Cross and other international aid groups out?

It's an absolute disgrace that it be allowed to continue and I'm disgusted at the UK governments seeming complicity in the interrogations.

	08-12-2004 19:56									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Correct me if I'm wrong but the UN Commision on Human Rights falls under the definition of other "treaties, proclamations, agreements, or national laws" so the Geneva Convention should take precedence during times of war or armed conflict.

Incorrect. The UN Convention Against Torture also applies during wartime. It was ratified later and includes no provision for giving way totally to the GC. It acts concurrently with the GC.

UN Convention Against Torture, Part 1, Article 2:

quote: No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat or war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture.

	08-12-2004 19:57									#20
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Great convention. I was unaware of that. Thanks Imran.

	08-12-2004 20:02									#21
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Mike, yeah, most people think only the Geneva Conventions apply. They don't have any idea about the other Conventions which have been signed that deal with other things, such as Torture, Rights of Women, Rights of the Child (IIRC, US hasn't signed this one), etc, etc.

	08-12-2004 20:04									#22
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There's also the Federal Anti-Torture Statute, as I posted in the other thread:

quote: TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE PART I - CRIMES CHAPTER 113C - TORTURE HEADING Sec. 2340A. Torture STATUTE (a) Offense. - Whoever outside the United States commits or attempts to commit torture shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both, and if death results to any person from conduct prohibited by this subsection, shall be punished by death or imprisoned for any term of years or for life. (b) Jurisdiction. - There is jurisdiction over the activity prohibited in subsection (a) if - (1) the alleged offender is a national of the United States; or (2) the alleged offender is present in the United States, irrespective of the nationality of the victim or alleged offender.

http://www.capdefnet.org/fdprc/cont...8_usc_2340A.htm

So, that's two laws.

	08-12-2004 20:05									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Part 3 defines who is a prisoner of war and who is an unlawful combatant. It also expressly excludes all unlawful combatants from any and all protections afforded by the Geneva and Hague Conventions.

Not a troll:

Does that mean that if the US invasion were declared illegal its troops would not be protected by the Geneva Convention laws? And if not, why? How can there be legal combantants in an illegal war?

	08-12-2004 20:08									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Mike, yeah, most people think only the Geneva Conventions apply. They don't have any idea about the other Conventions which have been signed that deal with other things, such as Torture, Rights of Women, Rights of the Child (IIRC, US hasn't signed this one), etc, etc.

No, it'd stop you executing under 18s.

	08-12-2004 20:09									#25
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Yep, that's exactly the reason why haven't even put pen to paper (as opposed to signing it and not ratifying it).

	08-12-2004 20:11									#26
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Those are all Third World nations.

First world is defined as the industrialized democracies, the second world is the communist states, and the third world is everyone else.

	08-12-2004 20:12									#27
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I know. Interestingly I was just reading at lunchtime something about new research into teen development and the ability of people (even up to 21...) to judge the consequences of their actions. And the reactions of a US judge who said after hearing it he was unsure of a couple of sentences he'd given after hearing it - although those were life with no parole not death.

	08-12-2004 20:15									#28
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Yes, another torture article.

How the army treats whistle-blowers:

quote: On June 15, 2002, Sgt. Frank "Greg" Ford, a counterintelligence agent in the California National Guard's 223rd Military Intelligence (M.I.) Battalion stationed in Samarra, Iraq, told his commanding officer, Capt. Victor Artiga, that he had witnessed five incidents of torture and abuse of Iraqi detainees at his base, and requested a formal investigation. Thirty-six hours later, Ford, a 49-year-old with over 30 years of military service in the Coast Guard, Army and Navy, was ordered by U.S. Army medical personnel to lie down on a gurney, was then strapped down, loaded onto a military plane and medevac'd to a military medical center outside the country. [...] Col. C. Tsai, a military doctor who examined Ford in Germany and found nothing wrong with him, told a film crew for Spiegel Television that he was "not surprised" at Ford's diagnosis. Tsai told Spiegel that he had treated "three or four" other U.S. soldiers from Iraq that were also sent to Landstuhl for psychological evaluations or "combat stress counseling" after they reported incidents of detainee abuse or other wrongdoing by American soldiers.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/12/08/coverup/

	08-12-2004 20:15									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Incorrect. The UN Convention Against Torture also applies during wartime. It was ratified later and includes no provision for giving way totally to the GC. It acts concurrently with the GC.

The Genevea Convention is very clear. It is the "supreme law of war" and when ever other "treaties, proclamations, agreements, or national laws" conflict with it the Geneva Convention wins during wars or armed conflicts. Everyone agreed to this and it is the recognized international law.

The UN Human convention was never "duly ratified" as was called for in the treaty so it is simply one of the other "treaties, proclamations, agreements, or national laws" which the Geneva Convention expressly says it is superior to when conflicts arise. That's simply international law not my wishful thinking.

	08-12-2004 20:17									#30
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Well if that is true, and I think it isn't. Then that's a bad thing. The UN convention is very clear and clearly a much better rule.