09-12-2004 13:57									#62
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i found the section in the bill

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query...FUS9id:e503989:

quote: SEC. 1027. DRIVER'S LICENSES AND PERSONAL IDENTIFICATION CARDS. (a) DEFINITIONS- In this section: (1) DRIVER'S LICENSE- The term `driver's license' means a motor vehicle operator's license as defined in section 30301(5) of title 49, United States Code. (2) PERSONAL IDENTIFICATION CARD- The term `personal identification card' means an identification document (as defined in section 1028(d)(3) of title 18, United States Code) issued by a State. (b) STANDARDS FOR ACCEPTANCE BY FEDERAL AGENCIES- (1) IN GENERAL- (A) LIMITATION ON ACCEPTANCE- No Federal agency may accept, for any official purpose, a driver's license or personal identification card newly issued by a State more than 2 years after the promulgation of the minimum standards under paragraph (2) unless the driver's license or personal identification card conforms to such minimum standards. (B) DATE FOR CONFORMANCE- The Secretary of Transportation, in consultation with the Secretary of Homeland Security, shall establish a date after which no driver's license or personal identification card shall be accepted by a Federal agency for any official purpose unless such driver's license or personal identification card conforms to the minimum standards established under paragraph (2). The date shall be as early as the Secretary determines it is practicable for the States to comply with such date with reasonable efforts. (C) STATE CERTIFICATION- (i) IN GENERAL- Each State shall certify to the Secretary of Transportation that the State is in compliance with the requirements of this section. (ii) FREQUENCY- Certifications under clause (i) shall be made at such intervals and in such a manner as the Secretary of Transportation, with the concurrence of the Secretary of Homeland Security, may prescribe by regulation. (iii) AUDITS- The Secretary of Transportation may conduct periodic audits of each State's compliance with the requirements of this section. (2) MINIMUM STANDARDS- Not later than 18 months after the date of enactment of this Act, the Secretary of Transportation, in consultation with the Secretary of Homeland Security, shall by regulation, establish minimum standards for driver's licenses or personal identification cards issued by a State for use by Federal agencies for identification purposes that shall include-- (A) standards for documentation required as proof of identity of an applicant for a driver's license or personal identification card; (B) standards for the verifiability of documents used to obtain a driver's license or personal identification card; (C) standards for the processing of applications for driver's licenses and personal identification cards to prevent fraud; (D) security standards to ensure that driver's licenses and personal identification cards are-- (i) resistant to tampering, alteration, or counterfeiting; and (ii) capable of accommodating and ensuring the security of a digital photograph or other unique identifier; and (E) a requirement that a State confiscate a driver's license or personal identification card if any component or security feature of the license or identification card is compromised. (3) CONTENT OF REGULATIONS- The regulations required by paragraph (2)-- (A) shall facilitate communication between the chief driver licensing official of a State, an appropriate official of a Federal agency and other relevant officials, to verify the authenticity of documents, as appropriate, issued by such Federal agency or entity and presented to prove the identity of an individual; (B) may not infringe on a State's power to set criteria concerning what categories of individuals are eligible to obtain a driver's license or personal identification card from that State; (C) may not require a State to comply with any such regulation that conflicts with or otherwise interferes with the full enforcement of State criteria concerning the categories of individuals that are eligible to obtain a driver's license or personal identification card from that State; (D) may not require a single design to which driver's licenses or personal identification cards issued by all States must conform; and (E) shall include procedures and requirements to protect the privacy and civil and due process rights of individuals who apply for and hold driver's licenses and personal identification cards. (4) NEGOTIATED RULEMAKING- (A) IN GENERAL- Before publishing the proposed regulations required by paragraph (2) to carry out this title, the Secretary of Transportation shall establish a negotiated rulemaking process pursuant to subchapter IV of chapter 5 of title 5, United States Code (5 U.S.C. 561 et seq.). (B) REPRESENTATION ON NEGOTIATED RULEMAKING COMMITTEE- Any negotiated rulemaking committee established by the Secretary of Transportation pursuant to subparagraph (A) shall include representatives from-- (i) among State offices that issue driver's licenses or personal identification cards; (ii) among State elected officials; (iii) the Department of Homeland Security; and (iv) among interested parties, including organizations with technological and operational expertise in document security and organizations that represent the interests of applicants for such licenses or identification cards. (C) TIME REQUIREMENT- The process described in subparagraph (A) shall be conducted in a timely manner to ensure that-- (i) any recommendation for a proposed rule or report is provided to the Secretary of Transportation not later than 9 months after the date of enactment of this Act and shall include an assessment of the benefits and costs of the recommendation; and (ii) a final rule is promulgated not later than 18 months after the date of enactment of this Act. (c) GRANTS TO STATES- (1) ASSISTANCE IN MEETING FEDERAL STANDARDS- Beginning on the date a final regulation is promulgated under subsection (b)(2), the Secretary of Transportation shall award grants to States to assist them in conforming to the minimum standards for driver's licenses and personal identification cards set forth in the regulation. (2) ALLOCATION OF GRANTS- The Secretary of Transportation shall award grants to States under this subsection based on the proportion that the estimated average annual number of driver's licenses and personal identification cards issued by a State applying for a grant bears to the average annual number of such documents issued by all States. (3) MINIMUM ALLOCATION- Notwithstanding paragraph (2), each State shall receive not less than 0.5 percent of the grant funds made available under this subsection. (d) EXTENSION OF EFFECTIVE DATE- The Secretary of Transportation may extend the date specified under subsection (b)(1)(A) for up to 2 years for driver's licenses issued by a State if the Secretary determines that the State made reasonable efforts to comply with the date under such subsection but was unable to do so. (e) AUTHORIZATION OF APPROPRIATIONS- There are authorized to be appropriated to the Secretary of Transportation for each of the fiscal years 2005 through 2009, such sums as may be necessary to carry out this section. SEC. 1028. SOCIAL SECURITY CARDS. (a) SECURITY ENHANCEMENTS- The Commissioner of Social Security shall-- (1) not later than 180 days after the date of enactment of this section, issue regulations to restrict the issuance of multiple replacement social security cards to any individual to minimize fraud; (2) within 1 year after the date of enactment of this section, require verification of records provided by an applicant for an original social security card, other than for purposes of enumeration at birth; and (3) within 18 months after the date of enactment of this section, add death, fraud, and work authorization indicators to the social security number verification system. (b) INTERAGENCY SECURITY TASK FORCE- The Commissioner of Social Security, in consultation with the Secretary of Homeland Security, shall form an interagency task force for the purpose of further improving the security of social security cards and numbers. Not later than 1 year after the date of enactment of this section, the task force shall establish security requirements, including-- (1) standards for safeguarding social security cards from counterfeiting, tampering, alteration, and theft; (2) requirements for verifying documents submitted for the issuance of replacement cards; and (3) actions to increase enforcement against the fraudulent use or issuance of social security numbers and cards. (c) AUTHORIZATION OF APPROPRIATIONS- There are authorized to be appropriated to the Commissioner of Social Security for each of the fiscal years 2005 through 2009, such sums as may be necessary to carry out this section.

	09-12-2004 15:38									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly Driver's licenses are issued by states; credit cards are issued by private institutions; both are voluntary. That's the difference.

Driver's license is voluntary?
A voluntary must have I'd say...

	09-12-2004 15:43									#64
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We certainly need a national ID card especially one which says if a person is a citizen or not.

	09-12-2004 15:55									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin We certainly need a national ID card especially one which says if a person is a citizen or not.

And also add an entry if the person is a muslim!! I think of something like a muslim star half-moon.

	09-12-2004 16:47									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa Driver's license is voluntary? A voluntary must have I'd say...

Not if you live in, for example, New York City...and eight million people do.

I have a friend from college, a Manhattanite, who only got her license when she was 30 (and moved to LA); more improbably, I dated someone who got her first driver's license when she was about 35, even though she'd lived her whole life in the Midwest. I myself spent several years in my 30s not driving at all (I did have a license, but had I lost it I doubt I would have replaced it). It's a convenience -- a significant convenience -- but not a necessity.

	09-12-2004 16:49									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin We certainly need a national ID card especially one which says if a person is a citizen or not.

Why? When was the last time you were in a situation where your citizenship needed instant adjudication?

	09-12-2004 16:59									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa And also add an entry if the person is a muslim!! I think of something like a muslim star half-moon.

I don't know about Germany but in the US it is illegal to employ someone who is not a citizen unless they have a work permit. Right now we have 13 million illegal aliens in this country nearly all of whom are working. A national ID card would make it much easier to detect people commiting this crime.

Also, right now people can game the system by getting driver's licences from several different states meaning they pay insurence based upon one driving record while putting tickets and accidents on a different driving record. One nationally issued card would end these frauds.

Lastly, there is a public safety concern. To travel on an airplane all you have to do is show your driver's licence. Several news programs have shown how easy it is to get multiple licences all in different names. What good is it to have a terrorist watch list if every criminal, terrorist or other wise, can so easily game the system? Clearly a national ID card is needed.

	09-12-2004 17:08									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I don't know about Germany but in the US it is illegal to employ someone who is not a citizen unless they have a work permit. Right now we have 13 million illegal aliens in this country nearly all of whom are working. A national ID card would make it much easier to detect people commiting this crime.

Oh, come on! Anyone who works is supposed to have either a social security number or a tax ID number, and it is the responsibility of the employer to document that. Anybody who is in the country and working illegally is doing so for an employer who is willfully ignoring US law on this matter and turning a blind eye to their employees' lack of documents. What on earth makes you think that one more document will change that?

	09-12-2004 17:14									#70
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When in college I worked for home depot and one of my co-works was an illegal alien. He was a nice guy and we'd go out for drinks on occation and one day he told me he was in the US illegally. I asked him how he had gotten a job and told me there are two pieces of ID needed a driver's licence and a passport or social security card or the like. He showed them his driver's licence, which illegals can easily get since no proof of citizenship or legal residence is needed, and then claimed he had forgotten the other one but would get it latter. Everytime they asked he kept promising to bring it and eventually they forgot about it and left him alone.

Having one ID would simplify things and prevent this juggling of documents. It would also make it harder for companies which employ illegals to claim they made an honest mistake since there is only one ID and it says clearly. That will make it easier to punish employers who break the law.

	09-12-2004 17:16									#71
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The biggest part for me continues to be safety concerns. Making it more difficult to get multiple IDs or fake IDs would be a great improvement and it would help us know that people flying on planes are who they say they are.

	09-12-2004 17:48									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly Not if you live in, for example, New York City...and eight million people do. I have a friend from college, a Manhattanite, who only got her license when she was 30 (and moved to LA); more improbably, I dated someone who got her first driver's license when she was about 35, even though she'd lived her whole life in the Midwest. I myself spent several years in my 30s not driving at all (I did have a license, but had I lost it I doubt I would have replaced it). It's a convenience -- a significant convenience -- but not a necessity.

But if you live in, for example, the midwest...and lots of people do.

	09-12-2004 18:02									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The biggest part for me continues to be safety concerns. Making it more difficult to get multiple IDs or fake IDs would be a great improvement and it would help us know that people flying on planes are who they say they are.

When there's one ID that everybody trusts, then you only have to fake one ID.

You would not believe the amount of money that the US spends on technology right now to make its passports and visas safe and secure. And are they? I don't think even the State Dept., which is justifiably proud of their documents' security features, would claim that they've eliminated passport and visa fraud.

Besides, the issue isn't how good the document is; it's how good the document inspector is. And the more I deal with Homeland Security, both as a federal employee and an international traveller, the more I find myself using the phrase "trained chimps."

I'm not saying your concerns aren't legitimate; I'm just saying this isn't the fix.

	09-12-2004 18:03									#74
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NEXT UP IS MICRO CHIP PUT INSIDE YOUR SKIN AND IT DETECTS IF YOU HAVE FUN AND IF YOU DO, THEY JUST CUT OFF THE POWER AND GOOD NIGHT FOREVER!

	09-12-2004 18:12									#75
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I really don't see the problem with National ID cards. I already carry a state issued drivers license, so no big deal to carry a federally issued ID. I have to chuckle at how some people see this a violation of their rights since probably 99% of the people here already carry form of "legal identification".

However, I have to agree with Rufus... I doubt the ability of the government to come up with a system that can't be beat. So a National ID system could lead to a false sense of security, and maybe even make matters worse in the long run.

	09-12-2004 18:34									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: no You've obviously never been married to a Canadian...

	09-12-2004 19:32									#77
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quote: I really don't see the problem with National ID cards. I already carry a state issued drivers license, so no big deal to carry a federally issued ID. I have to chuckle at how some people see this a violation of their rights since probably 99% of the people here already carry form of "legal identification".

Technology (for identification in that matter) is never a problem, the misuse is.

	09-12-2004 19:42									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa Technology (for identification in that matter) is never a problem, the misuse is.

True enough... but there seems to be an opinion by some that a national ID system automatically means we are becoming a Facist state... And I'm laughing because most people already have some form of ID that has the potential to be misused as much as a federal ID could be.

	09-12-2004 19:55									#79
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in the eu we have a standard id card. we can use that to travel to member states.

if we go outside the eu we need an international pass port. the US is very strict about foreigners having a state of the art pass port (bar code and fingerprints). keeping this in mind, i thought you guys already had one. it's very easy.

	09-12-2004 20:35									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Ming True enough... but there seems to be an opinion by some that a national ID system automatically means we are becoming a Facist state...

You don't draw the line at fascism. You draw it well before.

	09-12-2004 20:47									#81
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As usual, the citizens demand many things, however, as with any solution, compromises must be made.

People demand security, they want law enforcement, low crime, they want ease of transactions.

BUT

People don't want to give any personal information, they don't want to be on any lists, they don't want the government to know anything about them, some are leniant on criminal punishment.

The fact is the government knows plenty about you already today. Even if you don't have a drivers license or a credit card. If you work, they know about you. To seize upon a national ID as being the begining of big brother is naive. This "situation" has existed for decades already. Think that your government doesn't spy on you? Our government, and every other government has been spying on individuals for entire history of mankind.

Properly managed, this push to a national ID could bring along many benefits.

	09-12-2004 20:58									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Bush et al have little choice, they have to do crap like this because if they don't and we get attacked again, they will be blamed. Partisanship and political opportunism drives this nonsense, always has, and always will... "My opponent voted against 'the Patriot Act' and would make it easier for Al Qaeda to attack us"... That's why government grows, everytime something bad happens there's a group of politicians blaming their opponents for not placing our security in federal hands. And when federal security is breached and something bad happens? More federal controls... That's why wars are so destructive of liberty, and "perpetual" wars, like the drug war and now terrorism, do the most damage. I'm not angry with Bush et al for this legislation, I'm mad at the 2 parties for traveling the world creating enemies. I will never vote for these globalists and Ron Paul is about the only Republicrat I could vote for, of course, he's a libertarian. We got into WWII and as a result we inherited a divided Europe and the Cold War, so naturally we started screwing around in the Middle East because of oil and Israel. Our mistake was assuming the role of "superpower" just like Rome and now the barbarians are at the gates...

as an example of large federal goverment. In Elko Nevada where they only recieve 4 flights a day. There are like 10 federal screeners!. Surely, one of the more dangerous airports in the country to be guarding...

	09-12-2004 21:00									#83
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun We could just do away with the separate Social Security card then, and simply have our Social Security number on the new National ID card.

Big

I never carry my SSN on my person!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

you realize that people can steal your idenitity if you lose your wallet, right?

	09-12-2004 21:02									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I don't know about Germany but in the US it is illegal to employ someone who is not a citizen unless they have a work permit. Right now we have 13 million illegal aliens in this country nearly all of whom are working. A national ID card would make it much easier to detect people commiting this crime. Also, right now people can game the system by getting driver's licences from several different states meaning they pay insurence based upon one driving record while putting tickets and accidents on a different driving record. One nationally issued card would end these frauds. Lastly, there is a public safety concern. To travel on an airplane all you have to do is show your driver's licence. Several news programs have shown how easy it is to get multiple licences all in different names. What good is it to have a terrorist watch list if every criminal, terrorist or other wise, can so easily game the system? Clearly a national ID card is needed.

and national id cards can't be counterfeited?

	09-12-2004 21:06									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Shogun Gunner As usual, the citizens demand many things, however, as with any solution, compromises must be made. People demand security, they want law enforcement, low crime, they want ease of transactions. BUT People don't want to give any personal information, they don't want to be on any lists, they don't want the government to know anything about them, some are leniant on criminal punishment. The fact is the government knows plenty about you already today. Even if you don't have a drivers license or a credit card. If you work, they know about you. To seize upon a national ID as being the begining of big brother is naive. This "situation" has existed for decades already. Think that your government doesn't spy on you? Our government, and every other government has been spying on individuals for entire history of mankind. Properly managed, this push to a national ID could bring along many benefits.

that doesn't mean we want to make it worse by giving them more spying power. The goverment doesn't know **** about me, aside from what's in my military and tax records. People over estimate the goverment's ability to keep track of people. We couldn't keep track of known terrorists for crying out loud!

	09-12-2004 21:12									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin We certainly need a national ID card especially one which says if a person is a citizen or not.

A national ID card won't start the Fed all of the sudden enforcing immigration, and it isn't going to help at all against terrorism. the 9-11 guys had 60 drivers licenses.

	09-12-2004 21:21									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident People over estimate the goverment's ability to keep track of people. We couldn't keep track of known terrorists for crying out loud!

I would disagree with the first statement. We overestimate how many people the government can track. And I agree that this new functionality could be abused by our government, and quite frankly, we need futher public debate and independent reviews of programs and systems.

We couldn't keep track of known terrorists because the government lacks the proper tools and controls. These are being addressed today by DHS, DoD, Justice Departments, among others, but it will take time.

Biometric identifiers can be integrated into paper documents, like a passport or driver's licence and the plans are well underway. I wish I could go into the details of the programs I've worked on and the meetings I've been in, but I can tell you that the Federal security programs that I have personal knowledge of, each have a signficant effort clearly detailed in the program objectives to ensure information is used properly and controls are in place to detect, prevent and prosecute potential abusers of these new capabilities.

	09-12-2004 21:27									#88
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how does that quote go again?

he who trades privacy for security, shall recieve neither in the end. something like that.

we don't need national ID cards. All we need is guns. We can protect ourselves with guns. If the people in the WTC had guns, 9/11 would have never happened.

	09-12-2004 21:31									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Whoha A national ID card won't start the Fed all of the sudden enforcing immigration, and it isn't going to help at all against terrorism. the 9-11 guys had 60 drivers licenses.

Yes it will help. When a national ID card is required to obtain a passport, and the passport has a biometric identifier, then the need for a state ID is not required.

Scott Hastings, CIO of DHS and in charge of the US Visit program just gave a talk this morning at the Fairview Park Marriott in Falls Church, VA. I attended, with several colleagues, and he provided specifics to how many criminals have been stopped by the new technology implementations and the new DoS visa controls in place today. Almost five hundred people were at this breakfast conference and a vibrant discussion followed the presentation.

Hastings also talked about privacy and what DHS is doing to ensure that American's are not hurt, but rather helped by these initiatives. Specifically, "trusted traveller" and ease of transportation and ease of transaction were discussed. One of the largest issues confronting DHS is getting other countries on board with similiar controls and mechanisms -- and there has been considerable success. Hastings specifically mentioned Japan, which has a strong tradition of associating the fingerprint biometric with criminality, has been in talks with DHS about fingerprint biometrics. Australia, UK, Germany, Canada and Mexico are all partners in this effort -- among other countries. With their cooperation, the illegal immigration issue can be better addressed.

	09-12-2004 21:35									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident how does that quote go again? he who trades privacy for security, shall recieve neither in the end. something like that.

I would 100% agree with that. Without proper controls on privacy, the system won't work anyway. It requires "buy-in" with the consumer (read: citizen) and if the US population deems it to be too invasive without enough merit, the system will fail. We live in a democracy and can affect change.

quote: we don't need national ID cards. All we need is guns. We can protect ourselves with guns. If the people in the WTC had guns, 9/11 would have never happened.

I will assume this is a poor joke. Afraid of a paper document and a government database, but not afraid of a lethal projectile potentially wielded by anyone and everyone without proper oversight, training or morals?