10-12-2004 07:24									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Well, I don't think MNG cares too much about your criticism.

That's not the point here. We refute MNG for the benefit of the audience.

	10-12-2004 07:25									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Well, I don't think MNG cares too much about your criticism.

Then why should we care about his? I don't know about anybody else, but I for one don't much care for presumptions of infallibility.

	10-12-2004 07:26									#33
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quote: Agathon: The dinosaurs only existed once in the history of the world (as far as we know) and no-one experienced them... Does that mean they didn't exist and is therefor silly?

No. And that is a really sad answer by the way.

We have evidence of the existence of dinosaurs: fossils and the like. Given what we know about animals, geology and suchlike, which is based on countless examples, it is a reasonable assertion.

How do we know that the laws of nature were the same 50,000,000 years ago? We don't. One of the irrational things we do is engage in inductive inferences, we can't live without them.

	10-12-2004 07:27									#34
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quote: It's also way better than thinking that his whole life has been pointless.

This is the reason Flew changed his stance. It is exactly the same reason why the Martin Gardner, being a leading skeptic, is a Christian. He admitted that we (the atheists) have the upper hand, and his belief is based on an "irrational, deep-seated fear."

	10-12-2004 07:27									#35
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If everything is the proof of god's existance than how can you prove he exists/existed?

	10-12-2004 07:30									#36
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quote: If everything is the proof of god's existance than how can you prove he exists/existed?

It's also consistent with any number of explanations, and we have no reason at all to incline our belief toward any of them. It's quite possible that there is an intelligent deity, but we have absolutely no reason to think there is or there isn't. It is a question that is beyond human capacity to solve.

	10-12-2004 07:30									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy You have the personality of a hacker, editing that paragraph. It didn't fool me, though, cuz I ain't no fool.

Yeah, no flies on you...

	10-12-2004 07:32									#38
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quote: It's quite possible that there is an intelligent deity, but we have absolutely no reason to think there is or there isn't. It is a question that is beyond human capacity to solve.

I agree, which is why this statement:

quote: Deism can be quite easily refuted. It proposes a first cause which we have no experience of. Given that we only infer causes from constant conjunctions in nature, we cannot speculate about such a cause, since it only happened once (and that isn't enough) and no-one experienced it (which renders the whole thing silly).

Is silly.

You are right in that we can't infer the laws of nature existed before we observed them or have proof from which to prove, but that doesn't negate the possibility of a god.

	10-12-2004 07:33									#39
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Belief in science is strictly speaking irrational, but we can't help such irrationality.

People who attempt to establish religion on design grounds attempt to appeal to the same habits that scientists and all of us have, but they ignore the role of consistency.

	10-12-2004 07:35									#40
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quote: You are right in that we can't infer the laws of nature existed before we observed them or have proof from which to prove, but that doesn't negate the possibility of a god.

It doesn't negate the possibility of blue space goats either, but it is irrational to believe in such things.

If people want to argue that it is possible for a God to exist, I don't care. Even if it is possible, and even if such a God does exist, it is irrational to believe in his existence.

	10-12-2004 07:35									#41
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It's all just arbitrary paradigm designs meant to fit the single human view of existance.

DOn't make it true

	10-12-2004 07:41									#42
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quote: It's all just arbitrary paradigm designs meant to fit the single human view of existance.

I have no idea what any of that means.

People have beliefs about the uniformity of nature, beliefs which are formed by habit and experience.

Unless they have some defeating reason, everyone believes that if one thing keeps following another, that this will always be the case and always has been.

In cases where we have no experience of the cause, we have no reason to make a causal inference.

If I see a half finished house, I know that someone built it based on my previous experience, or on the testimony of others that is based on their experience.

The world is not like that. We don't have repeated experiences of world creation to appeal to.

	10-12-2004 08:04									#43
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wrong thread.

	10-12-2004 08:06									#44
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Philosopher. Based on scientific evidence. This is just stupid....

	10-12-2004 08:08									#45
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quote: wrong thread.

but it applied none-the-less

	10-12-2004 08:09									#46
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quote: but it applied none-the-less

Not quite.

	10-12-2004 09:49									#47
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Hey MNG!

I've never heard of this guy in my life. Therefore, he is not a leading philosopher.

You're welcome

	10-12-2004 09:57									#48
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I wish there were a God and an afterlife. I don't like the idea of oblivion. But I'm not going to lie to myself to give me comfort.

	10-12-2004 10:00									#49
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It is good to see that there is hope even for atheists. An unbiased look at the origin of life as we understand it thus far does lead one to question the mantra of materialism spewed from people who promote their opinion and personal beliefs in the name of "science".

	10-12-2004 10:02									#50
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By the way, I like your new sig Ramo.

	10-12-2004 10:03									#51
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara But I'm not going to lie to myself to give me comfort.

99% of the time the reason why atheists choose not to believe in God is because of their prejudices against religious morals and their unwillingness to change their lifestyle.

I get a strong feeling that this is the case with you.

	10-12-2004 10:08									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy 99% of the time the reason why atheists choose not to believe in God is because of their prejudices against religious morals and their unwillingness to change their lifestyle. I get a strong feeling that this is the case with you.

99% of the time the reason why theists choose to believe in God is because of their bias towards religious morals and their unwillingness to change their lifestyle.

I get a strong feeling that this is the case with you.

	10-12-2004 10:11									#53
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No, Asher. I'm Southern Baptist. Far from it.

	10-12-2004 10:13									#54
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At least be original, Asher...

	10-12-2004 10:15									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln At least be original, Asher...

The whole point was shooting down that whole argument, because it swings both ways -- blaming the status quo.

Being original is in the realm of the bible translators, because its meaning changes every f*cking time.

	10-12-2004 10:16									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy Because there is a worldwide religious majority, that proves that theory wrong.

Idiot.

	10-12-2004 10:18									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Agathon: The dinosaurs only existed once in the history of the world (as far as we know) and no-one experienced them... Does that mean they didn't exist and is therefor silly?

We have experience of the dinosaurs.

	10-12-2004 10:27									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Asher The whole point was shooting down that whole argument, because it swings both ways -- blaming the status quo. Being original is in the realm of the bible translators, because its meaning changes every f*cking time.

It least they are not sheep...

	10-12-2004 10:31									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy 99% of the time the reason why atheists choose not to believe in God is because of their prejudices against religious morals and their unwillingness to change their lifestyle. I get a strong feeling that this is the case with you.

Maybe you should use your brains instead of your feelings. #1, it's BS. The vast majority of religious morals are shared by atheists, because they are human rules. Don't lie don't steal, don't murder, etc., are universal human morals. Not eating shelfish is silly (unless its during a red tide).

I'm an atheist not because I don't share religious morals, but because there is no evidence that a deity exists. It is ridiculous to believe in a God.

	10-12-2004 10:32									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln It least they are not sheep...

Then why do you call the Savior the Good Shepard?