12-12-2004 09:25									#1
	I'm never buying another Valve game Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Don't get me wrong, I love Half Life 2 and am greatly enjoying it.
However, the freaking thing took two hours to install due to the combination of a basic testing failure (disks 4 and 5 not installing if you don't install the Counterstrike code) and the need to prove that I wasn't a criminal by registering and de-cracking the game.

As I spent about 2/3 of a day's pay on the game, I don't see why I should have had to waste a large chunk of time proving this. The whole installation process stank of Microsoft-esqe arrogance, and I'm not going to reward it by buying another game by this company. So there.

	12-12-2004 09:34									#2
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Well they did have their code stolen, so I'm sure they're a bit gunshy.

	12-12-2004 10:41									#3
	Inflate your Upload Space

Yeah, I agree with Harry. They weren't just subject to basic pirating of their game, they had their code stolen. So they are going to make sure they protect their product as much as possible.

It may impact legal purchasers more, but that is what happens when some idiots mess around with piracy.

	12-12-2004 12:01									#4
	Tired of ads?

I refuse to invest in Valve's draconian Steam system. I resent having to use a CD with games I have legitimately bought, let alone needing stupid third party software to even start the game.

There will always be pirates, so if a company is so daft as to allow their code to be stolen - that's their problem, not the legitimate customers.

I just wish people had voted with their wallets, instead of blindly rushing out to get this game. Doesn't anyone learn from game hype?

	12-12-2004 14:22									#5
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

There are more games that require registering on-line or use third party software (like refusing to work when NERO CD burner or virtual CD software is installed). Valve does take it to a new level with Steam. The advantages to the company are evident: prevent piracy, required online registration, personal data/hardware info (more user info =marketing information!), centralized way to deliver updates and patches, offer new software packages (levels, maps, new episodes). The advantages, apart from patches&updates for the player are not so evident*. A casual player wouldn't even know that it keeps running in the background or that you could turn it off.

In effect, a player is no longer buying a piece of software he's buying a license for use.

I'm afraid we'll see a permament on-line registration services like Steam more in the future.

*Is it possible to sell your copy of HL2 after use? e.a . what does Steam do if someone else logs in with that CD-key?

Last edited by CapTVK on 12-12-2004 at 14:31

	12-12-2004 14:29									#6
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Yeah, I agree with Harry. They weren't just subject to basic pirating of their game, they had their code stolen. So they are going to make sure they protect their product as much as possible.

I'm pretty sure Steam wasn't introduced as a result of the code theft. Steam was planned long before.

	12-12-2004 15:26									#7
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Yeah, I agree with Harry. They weren't just subject to basic pirating of their game, they had their code stolen. So they are going to make sure they protect their product as much as possible. It may impact legal purchasers more, but that is what happens when some idiots mess around with piracy.

So you think it's rational to react to a real threat by punishing genuine customers in place of the pirates, since punishing the pirates is not possible?

	12-12-2004 15:28									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Not that I would ever play the sequal to the horrible FPS that is Halflife.

* DrSpike shoots Tassadar.

	12-12-2004 18:40									#9
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Steam is, IMO, an excellent example of terrible piracy protection. The game was released by warez groups within 24 hours of the release anyway. However, legal users had to suffer more than the pirate users. Moreover, this is a classic example of the warez version being better than the original.

I de-Steamed my legal copy of the game to get MUCH better performance. I don't understand people who are excited about Steam - are they unable to download patches manually or what (the ONLY upside of Steam, and even then not always).

	12-12-2004 19:23									#10
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Moreover, this is a classic example of the warez version being better than the original.

Has a warez version been released that works in MP?

	12-12-2004 19:33									#11
	Inflate your Upload Space

Do you mean that HL2DM released last week? If so, yes. A MP-working CSS version has been released as well as soon as CSS was released.

And yes, you do get better ping/FPS with the warez/de-Steamed version. I'd highly recommend any legal users to deSteam their game, too. The most common complaint after release was that stuttering problem that I got, too, initially. Then I de-Steamed the game, stuttering gone, FPS way up.

	12-12-2004 19:40									#12
	Inflate your Upload Space

Solver,

You have to be more specific, who's this "the people" excited about Steam? A)The industry, B) the power gamer C) or the casual player?

That the industry is beaming about Steam I can understand because it opens the doors to a permanent registration/subscription service. If it keeps going once Valve starts to release episodes which you can buy and register (via Steam) online they'll worship it.

I can't imagine power gamers being excited about Steam apart from the fanboys who can't seperate Steam from the game itself. Apparently Steam takes up a small part of system resources. Small, but still enough to be significant. Power gamers "in the know" will probably remove it anyway. The rest will probably accept it as normal and keep it or, once they realize they can eke out a few more FPS, lose Steam later on.

That leaves the casual player. Who, because he doesn't know any better, is excited because he really believes that Steam is an extra service (automatic patching and updates).

	12-12-2004 20:00									#13
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Can you patch HL2 without Steam? I assume not. Those with warez versions that emulate Steam or whatever, how do they update?

Whatever the case, its personally more than £10 worth of bother, which is what I'll pay when it comes down.

	12-12-2004 20:09									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

CapTVK,

It is actually indeed the casual gamers excited about Steam. At least reading HL2 forus indicates so. This might be related to the fact that the average HL2 gamer seems not to be as computer literate as most people for instance here on Apolyton, but regardless of that, many such people are happy - yes, I too agree they are often fanboys who can't separate Steam and the game itself.

Also, Steam actually seems poorly programmed. There is the issue of bugs, etc., but it takes up quite a big amount of system resources actually. Even when doing nothing, it seems to take about 30 MB of RAM. On a 512 MB system, this can be noticeable, but on a 256 MB system, it will be of big significance.

I am also often annoyed by the general levels of low computer literacy when I see those... and I fear Steam might be contributing to it. It focuses too much on spoon-feeding the end user. Not only does it do that, it also takes away power from the end user, such as messing with game files, which is hard this way. To quote someone excited about Steam

quote: This is the greatest program ever, you can choose your games to play from a list and you also get all the updates automatically, it's just so easy!

I am perfectly capable of running my games in any other way and of downloading updates from a webpage. Actually, many other game include a tool that will automatically download & install updates as a menu choice from the game itself, not giving you any other extra software.

Reading what bigger sites say about Steam is interesting indeed. Much of industry is happy, and that I don't like. I don't like subscription based systems, etc. It feels more and more like we'll be renting games soon instead of buying them. I hope it doesn't come to that.

Maq,

With a warez version, people can download a rar with the update for their warez release. A patch, after all, changes a number of game files, that's it. So the warez patch puts those files into an archive which the end-user can just extract. Simple.

And yes, I would pay 10$ more for a HL2 version that comes as all decent games do, without Steam.

	12-12-2004 23:01									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

hmm..I been thinking of HL2 but after all this..I really need something else to slow down my system

I look forward to additional comments

Gramps

	12-12-2004 23:32									#16
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: So you think it's rational to react to a real threat by punishing genuine customers in place of the pirates, since punishing the pirates is not possible?

That's what usually happens. In the cat and mouse game between pirates and game companies, the companies have to do something. They can't simply say that, hey, people are going to pirate anyway, so we shouldn't do anything about it.

	12-12-2004 23:52									#17
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: So you think it's rational to react to a real threat by punishing genuine customers in place of the pirates, since punishing the pirates is not possible? That's what usually happens. In the cat and mouse game between pirates and game companies, the companies have to do something. They can't simply say that, hey, people are going to pirate anyway, so we shouldn't do anything about it.

Agreed

	13-12-2004 01:18									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

That companies try to prevent illegal copying is not in question. What is how far companies are willing to go at the expense of the consumer (who also has his rights and user preferences). So: is Steam just another example of copyright protection or enforcement?


Btw,
I still haven't gotten an answer to my question: Is it possible to sell my copy of HL2 after use or give it away to someone else?

	13-12-2004 01:27									#19
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Btw, I still haven't gotten an answer to my question: Is it possible to sell my copy of HL2 after use or give it away to someone else?

Yes, of course. As long as you provide all the details for the steam account with the game.

	13-12-2004 01:33									#20
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Details of the steam account? What do you mean by that?

	13-12-2004 01:57									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I assume he means login and password. After all, anyone can download legally the files you have on the disc, what you'll be actually selling will be your right to actually play the game, which is tied to your Steam account the moment you entered in the code you got with the copy of the game. Of course, what about all the possible other games tied into your Steam account?

	13-12-2004 01:58									#22
	Put an end to popups!

The username and password you set for your online steam account to register.

EDIT: Or what Kass said.

EDIT2: If you have multiple games playable through Valve I assume you product register one them and create another steam account for the other Steam games, afterall you only need to register one key to open an account.

	13-12-2004 02:13									#23
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

But are you supposed to register them separately from the get-go? You're supposed to know right from the start if you'll ever sell any of the games?

	13-12-2004 02:21									#24
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Buying a used copy of HL2 isn't a smart move then. It's a oneway ticket. Once used someone else cannot use it again.

The same way when you give away your own used copy. That person would still have to register for his own Steam account.

	13-12-2004 02:30									#25
	Remove this text

I've decided to look up the license agreements for Steam

http://www.steampowered.com/index.p...riber_agreement

quote: 2. SOFTWARE LICENSES A. License Terms. Steam and your Subscription(s) require the installation of the Steam client and the automatic download of software, other content and updates thereto onto your computer ("Steam Software"). You may not use Steam Software for any purpose other than the permitted access to Steam and your Subscriptions. You understand that Steam may automatically update, pre-load, create new versions or otherwise enhance the Steam Software and accordingly, the system requirements to use the Steam Software may change over time. You understand that neither this Agreement nor the terms associated with a particular Subscription entitles you to future updates, new versions or other enhancements of the Steam Software associated with a particular Subscription although Valve may choose to provide certain future updates, new versions or other enhancements of the Steam Software in its sole discretion. Valve hereby grants, and you accept, a limited, non-exclusive license and right to use the Steam Software for your personal use in accordance with this Agreement and the Subscription Terms. The Steam Software is licensed, not sold. Your license confers no title or ownership in the Steam Software. This license is effective until termination in accordance with this Agreement.

In essence you buy a license, not a piece of software. That copy of HL2 you bought in the store has a resale value of zero the moment you use it.

	13-12-2004 03:34									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Kassiopeia But are you supposed to register them separately from the get-go? You're supposed to know right from the start if you'll ever sell any of the games?

I only own 1 Valve Steam game (HL1) so I'm not sure how it works. I registered my HL CD-Key when I created my Steam account. If I buy HL2 now do I need to input my HL2 Key again in Steam to play HL2 online or can I use my current Steam account (registered with my HL1 Key) ? I assume its the former, because it works that way with Opposing Force (an expansion to HL1) too.

I know that if I were to sell my HL1 now I'd only need to provide them with the CD Key and game, but they couldnt play it online because the Key is already in use in my current Steam account. I would need to either give them my current Steam account aswell and create a new one with HL2, or somehow "unregister" my HL1 key from my current account. The whole thing is gonna create a mess for someone.

	13-12-2004 04:14									#27
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

From what I can tell, Steam sucks if you actually purchase the physical CDs; however, if you just buy the product online and download it, it runs flawlessly. Every single person that I've heard complain, bought the CDs. I downloaded it and have had zero problems + I have the luxury of playing the game on multiple systems if I want (you just have to be careful not to log on both machines at the same time, not a problem with the offline mode).

Yeah, yeah, steam sucks... but only if you're behind the times and still going to the store to buy games

	13-12-2004 04:20									#28
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Zero resale value

Currently, you can not transfer a cd-key from one account to another.

*Sigh* Its kind of annoying when companies force their potential customers into warez.

	13-12-2004 05:13									#29
	Tired of ads?

With zero resale value, they're still taxing you the full price?! And if you download it directly from them, it's the same price as when getting it through a retailer. You'd think they could lower the massive profit margin even just a a bit to make it more appealing. I'm ever so happy I didn't buy HL2. (I borrowed it from a friend. )

	13-12-2004 05:36									#30
	Re: I'm never buying another Valve game Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Case Don't get me wrong, I love Half Life 2 and am greatly enjoying it. However, the freaking thing took two hours to install due to the combination of a basic testing failure (disks 4 and 5 not installing if you don't install the Counterstrike code) and the need to prove that I wasn't a criminal by registering and de-cracking the game. As I spent about 2/3 of a day's pay on the game, I don't see why I should have had to waste a large chunk of time proving this. The whole installation process stank of Microsoft-esqe arrogance, and I'm not going to reward it by buying another game by this company. So there.

disk 5? don't they have DVD versions.

I love my Everquest 2 DVD version. 2 DVD's. My brother has the CD version, and I think he had like 8 disks

games are so large, it's not worth using CD's anymore.