14-12-2004 07:10									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious It's up to you Oerdin. There are a lot of idiots here who can't understand the fundamentals of economics. You don't have to be one.

But you do?

	14-12-2004 07:28									#62
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The New York Times just ran an informative piece about the massive increases in food production taking place in South America, particularly Brazil. This "agricultural revolution" is attributed to agritech advances making tropical land more suitable for farming (by adding phospherous and lime), adapting crops and livestock to the local environment, and economic policies fostering trade.

Brazil alone is surpassing the US in many areas of agricultural production, a trend which appears to be accellerating.

	14-12-2004 07:33									#63
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What mindseye said

What we forget is that Agricultral Science isn't always the devil, in places like India, 30 years ago, cross breeding of rice has lead to a crop that was a bounty and India became a net exporter or rice, after experiencing a food shortage problem.

	14-12-2004 08:53									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai You mean the US ban on Canadian beef?

Why should the US continue banning canadian beef after having cases of mad cow domestically as well?

	14-12-2004 08:55									#65
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quote: Originally posted by mindseye The New York Times just ran an informative piece about the massive increases in food production taking place in South America, particularly Brazil. This "agricultural revolution" is attributed to agritech advances making tropical land more suitable for farming (by adding phospherous and lime), adapting crops and livestock to the local environment, and economic policies fostering trade. Brazil alone is surpassing the US in many areas of agricultural production, a trend which appears to be accellerating.

That's nothing. Brazil is at least a large country. I'm amazed that tiny countries like UAE nearly double the US in production of tonnage of wheat, barely, rice, maize, and other cereals.

	14-12-2004 09:18									#66
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse But you do?

Maybe you can tell us how you get more quantity of a good at a higher price with nothing happening to demand smart guy?

	14-12-2004 11:03									#67
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the d & s graph shows that at a certain price, how much is demanded and how much is given. at the equilibirum all supply gets cleared and there is no extra demand, as supply gets cleared and there is no change in demand, the price will remain the same, so just because america buys more, doesnt mean the price goes up in the 3rd world. that price thats given already parcels out all supply regardless of where the demanders are. price doesnt go up beause supply starts to clear.

	14-12-2004 11:06									#68
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I want to hear what Krazy Horse thinks.

	14-12-2004 11:10									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison I'm very disappointed...no-one seemed to recognise my quote...

Yeah, yeah. A Civ I quote, hoorah. Here's a cookie...erm, biscuit.

	14-12-2004 11:28									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo That's nothing. Brazil is at least a large country. I'm amazed that tiny countries like UAE nearly double the US in production of tonnage of wheat, barely, rice, maize, and other cereals.

The don't produce double. HERE are some figures which I looked up in about 30 seconds whcih shows the US producing 50% more in 1992 then the UAE produced last year. Basically, the UAE spend oil money to fertilize the hell out of it's crops and it uses desalanization to irrigate. The farmers all recieve large subsidies other wise they would not be profitable.

If those subsidies went away then the UAE, Kuwait, and a bunch of other small but productive Arab producers would simply cease producing much agricultural goods at all.

	14-12-2004 11:32									#71
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In here, the farmers are next to mafia. They whine every year how their business is poor, because someone droppe the price on bread 1 cent AGAIN!

Yesterday on the radio I heard, that average farmers income is based on 50% actual income from his own business and 50% government money.

So, what the hell are they doing? Or, if the business is THAT bad, maybe they should think about some other stuff. Or at least stop whining why they don't get more free handouts. Already half of their income comes from government. And they want more. ****, maybe they soon stop working and want money for that too.

	14-12-2004 11:32									#72
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free water, as is the case in washington st and oregon, are even more distorting and harmful that straight forward usbsidies

	14-12-2004 11:41									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka ****, maybe they soon stop working and want money for that too.

Farmers already get paid not to work. To attempt to prevent over production (or rather as bad of over production) farmers get paid to leave a certain percentage of their land fallow. Basically they are farmers who are being paid not to farm.

	14-12-2004 11:46									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo Why should the US continue banning canadian beef after having cases of mad cow domestically as well?

Ask your government.

	14-12-2004 12:08									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Maybe you can tell us how you get more quantity of a good at a higher price with nothing happening to demand smart guy?

Smarter than you, sweetheart.

You've completely ignored the fact that rising incomes due to increased ability of 3rd world farmers to compete will increase demand in 3rd world countries for food.

You've also ignored the fact that we're nowhere near selling all the food which is produced (i.e. we're not at equilibrium). This is in large part due to 1st world subsidies combined with price supports (http://www.fsa.usda.gov/dafp/psd/) and import quotas. So increased sale of food does not lead immediately to higher prices. There is a significant lag time until the demand would catch up with supply at current prices.



Thanks for being my *****.

	14-12-2004 12:15									#76
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In addition of KH's explination, just look at the supply-demand graph, Kid (you have to be told that more than once?). Go up the supply curve. That leads to higher price and greater quantity with demand not changing. Of course that is a surplus, but it is a way of getting more quantity at higher price without changing demand.

	14-12-2004 12:19									#77
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quote: Yeah. I'm sure production will increase, but it shouldn't mean that the supply in the 3rd world will increase. It makes sense that prices will be higher so supply must me shorter.

But in response people will produce more to take advantage of the better profit until food production is too high and the price will come down but we will still end up with more production.

quote: Yep, because we know that there is no such thing as famine and starvation in parts of Africa, so we can import food that Americans do not need.

Those are usually man-made. Food is used as a weapon in many places suffering from dictators, warlords, etc...

	14-12-2004 12:23									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin And do you suppose those higher prices are going to encourage more farmers to plant more acrage?

I'm not really sure this is a good thing. Environmental destruction due to human encroachment is already reaching crisis proportions in the 3rd world.

	14-12-2004 12:26									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin And the primary reason they lack money is because rich countries tarrif them out of the market or else they subsidize rich country farms to such an extent that prices collapse.

Actually, we do the opposite. We subsidize our farmers in order to keep prices up, so that farmers don't over produce and swamp the market and go out of business.

	14-12-2004 12:26									#80
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How ya going to feed people? Or are you in Stalin mode

	14-12-2004 12:28									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui In addition of KH's explination, just look at the supply-demand graph, Kid (you have to be told that more than once?). Go up the supply curve. That leads to higher price and greater quantity with demand not changing. Of course that is a surplus, but it is a way of getting more quantity at higher price without changing demand.

Why would you go up the supply curve? Supply changes. You go up the demand curve. Holy cow Imran.

	14-12-2004 12:33									#82
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Smarter than you, sweetheart. You've completely ignored the fact that rising incomes due to increased ability of 3rd world farmers to compete will increase demand in 3rd world countries for food.

You always have a wise ass comment to make to me. Now I have you in my clutches.

Let me get this straight. You believe that their income increases so much by not selling in their domestic market, and exporting instead, that they the producers themselves, buy more additional food than they additionally exported. I want to get your possition straight and give you every opportunity to make it clear.

quote: You've also ignored the fact that we're nowhere near selling all the food which is produced (i.e. we're not at equilibrium). This is in large part due to 1st world subsidies combined with price supports (http://www.fsa.usda.gov/dafp/psd/) and import quotas. So increased sale of food does not lead immediately to higher prices. There is a significant lag time until the demand would catch up with supply at current prices.

And do you believe that the surplus food was more than the additional exports?

	14-12-2004 12:34									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Smiley There's no shortage of food in the world; the 3rd world problem is that farmers lack money to buy the other food types they need for a balanced diet.

Exactly. Most hunger in the world is caused by an inability to purchase food, not a lack of food.

	14-12-2004 12:38									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker But in response people will produce more to take advantage of the better profit until food production is too high and the price will come down but we will still end up with more production.

If and when the price falls it's going to be because of some other factor. A decrease in supply does not create a lower price. It creates a higher price. It's the Law of Supply. For some reason I can not get through to people about this.

	14-12-2004 12:40									#85
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Kid is right in the particulars, even if theory should ideally be different. For example, when Somolia was experiencing famine, and the U.S. sent in the marines to guard the food, Somolia was still growing enough food to feed its people, and in fact, was exporting food for hard currency. These days, famine has nothng to do with drought, and everythng to do with man made relations.

The fact is, if it is more profitable to sell your food abroad, you aren't going to sell it in your home market, if you can help it. While large landlords might increase their incomes, this doesn't mean that smaller farmers are seeing their incomes rise, and certainly others aren't seeing their incomes rise sufficiently to match the prices paid by overfed 1st worlders. And the landlords don't spend their money in local markets, but rather buy items from the 1st world, so they dont help the local economy.

So what happens? 1st world governments buy grain from their own subsidized farmers and distribute it to the impoverished masses of the 3rd world.

	14-12-2004 12:49									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious You always have a wise ass comment to make to me. Now I have you in my clutches.

Watch me quake. You're the Ned of the left. For that reason you're much less morally repugnant and yet just as easy to trounce.

quote: Let me get this straight. You believe that their income increases so much by not selling in their domestic market, and exporting instead, that they the producers themselves, buy more additional food than they additionally exported.

This sentence is very badly constructed. For the sake of clarity I'll rephrase it for you more eloquently than you have a chance of doing on your own. If this is not what you meant to say, feel free to object.

quote: What Kidicious should have posted Let me get this straight: you believe that increased prices worldwide will allow 3rd world farmers to export more food, increasing their income to the point that the increase in the food that they import will outpace the increase in food that they export

And as for my response to you, it goes as follows:

No.

	14-12-2004 12:53									#87
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Watch me quake. You're the Ned of the left. For that reason you're much less morally repugnant and yet just as easy to trounce.

No, that's problem_childe. Kid's in his own catagory. Kid actually has lots of knowledge, he just can't express it. He's also too eager to respond, so he doesn't take the time to think through what he really wants to say. Because of this, he's super easy to troll.

	14-12-2004 12:55									#88
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OMG! That's not what I said. How sad?! Try again.

	14-12-2004 12:58									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious OMG! That's not what I said. How sad?! Try again.

Yet another example of an unintelligible post from Kid.

Are you attempting to mock my one word response or objecting to my rephrasing of your post? The world may never know.

	14-12-2004 13:01									#90
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What a weak punt. You suck. Respond to my post or admit that you suck.