16-12-2004 10:58									#31
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note my point on changing definitions

and note that I agree with lifitng the prohibitions on interacial marriage, just like I agree with lifting the prohibitions on homosexual marriage

Jon Miller

	16-12-2004 11:00									#32
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MrFun, I have been totally convinced by your arguments.


Oh, wait, I already was convinced, so this thread is pointless to me. Well then, I shall be leaving.

	16-12-2004 11:05									#33
	Re: Issues concerning gays -- part XXXVVV Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by MrFun Apparently, convicted felons are worthy of equal citizenship over law-abiding gays and lesbians who pay their taxes, earn a living through a job, and are actively involved in their community.

Yeah, but... Dirty homo gays want to... Uh... get married and stuff.

	16-12-2004 11:59									#34
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(to Jon Miller)


Actually, broadening the inclusion of gays into the institution of marriage would strengthen families that are based on couples who are gay and of the same gender.

Including gays in the institution of marriage would actually strengthen true family values, because then, not only would the couples have legal protection of their long-term commitment to one another, their children will also be protected by the law.

	16-12-2004 12:21									#35
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I agree that it would be a good thing (strengthen families of gays, children of gays, and societal and legal support of 'permant' relationships)

I just also agree, that in a way in weakens marriage

the positives far outway the negatives

Jon Miller

	16-12-2004 13:54									#36
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What? Is it part thirty-fifteen already?

[/smartass comment on the title]

	16-12-2004 17:20									#37
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Ban all marriages! It is the single largest contributory factor to divorce in the world!

	16-12-2004 17:48									#38
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MrFun

Join the underground railroad of the 21st Century.

Flee gender slavery and sexual oppression!

Canada welcomes you!

	16-12-2004 19:35									#39
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun HUH??

Presumably something along the lines of 'how you gonna keep them down on the farm now they've been to a wedding reception with white folks....'


Or not.

To be honest I don't think his arguments were terribly coherent, and neither did he.

	16-12-2004 19:49									#40
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I scream
You scream
We all scream for icecream
you scream
We all scream for icecream
you scream
We all scream for icecream

	16-12-2004 19:49									#41
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This thread is coincidentally quite topical, as some parts of the press in Britain are getting up in arms about Peter Sutcliffe (The "Yorkshire Ripper") allegedly being about to marry a woman.

	16-12-2004 19:55									#42
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I would have thought it was abundantly clear that a large majority of americans oppose gay marriage because of their religious beliefs. Continually bringing this issue in front of them is like waving a red flag at a bull. A more sensible approach is to promote civil unions which (again) a majority seem to support (or at least condone).

	16-12-2004 19:56									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa I scream You scream We all scream for icecream you scream We all scream for icecream you scream We all scream for icecream

	16-12-2004 19:59									#44
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH I would have thought it was abundantly clear that a large majority of americans oppose gay marriage because of their religious beliefs. Continually bringing this issue in front of them is like waving a red flag at a bull. A more sensible approach is to promote civil unions which (again) a majority seem to support (or at least condone).

People can take their religious beliefs and cram it...
Marriage is sanctioned by the state. Let the state decide... religions shouldn't be involved any more than providing a religious sanction to the state approved marriage. Hell, religions can't even agree on this topic. So let them deal with their congregations... and let the state determine the actual laws that EVERYBODY has to follow.

	16-12-2004 20:03									#45
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Does that court judgement mean that gay convicts can marry?

	16-12-2004 20:21									#46
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Gays will just get fat like everyone else if they get married.

	16-12-2004 20:31									#47
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Viking MrFun Join the underground railroad of the 21st Century. Flee gender slavery and sexual oppression! Canada welcomes you!

Maybe someday, if things get even worse (like a federal anti-gay amendment would pass after having been rejected already, the first time).

	16-12-2004 20:32									#48
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Presumably something along the lines of 'how you gonna keep them down on the farm now they've been to a wedding reception with white folks....' Or not. To be honest I don't think his arguments were terribly coherent, and neither did he.

I believe you're right. Jon Miller doesn't sound homophobic, since he does claim he supports equal marriage protection, but his argument still does not make sense to me, either.

	16-12-2004 20:34									#49
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH I would have thought it was abundantly clear that a large majority of americans oppose gay marriage because of their religious beliefs. Continually bringing this issue in front of them is like waving a red flag at a bull. A more sensible approach is to promote civil unions which (again) a majority seem to support (or at least condone).

Tyranny of the majority is antithetical to the principle of fairness and respect for those who are different from you. And, religious beliefs are too often not grounds for rational, logical reasons on why we should exclude gays from legal marriage protection.


And secondly, I suggest you go back and read the post in which I listed the author's reasons for why marriage is so important for gays -- it's important for -- SURPRISE -- the same reasons that straight couples take for granted.

	16-12-2004 20:36									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Ming People can take their religious beliefs and cram it... Marriage is sanctioned by the state. Let the state decide... religions shouldn't be involved any more than providing a religious sanction to the state approved marriage. Hell, religions can't even agree on this topic. So let them deal with their congregations... and let the state determine the actual laws that EVERYBODY has to follow.

Have I ever told you how much I appreciate your support?

	16-12-2004 20:36									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Gays will just get fat like everyone else if they get married.

They exist already- fear them.


They're called bears. My friend went to a rubber/fetish club and was told that with his build (tall, lean, muscular hairy) he apparently is an 'otter'.


I'm more of a basilisk I think.

	16-12-2004 20:37									#52
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH Does that court judgement mean that gay convicts can marry?

Nope -- only if you're a straight convicted felon. United States really has some very irrational laws and regulations sometimes.

	16-12-2004 20:58									#53
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH I would have thought it was abundantly clear that a large majority of americans oppose gay marriage because of their religious beliefs. Continually bringing this issue in front of them is like waving a red flag at a bull. A more sensible approach is to promote civil unions which (again) a majority seem to support (or at least condone).

SpencerH is right. The gay marriage movement suffered a major setback in the 2004 election when 11 states outright banned them. If the movement was a bit more politically savvy, they would (pardon the pun) try to come in through the backdoor by promoting civil unions that are more or less equivalent to marriage. Work can continue from there until civil unions are de facto marriages.

The whole "What do we want?" "Gay Marriage!" "When do we want it?" "Now!" thing is good at getting attention and raising awareness, but it also tends to polarize people. It forces fence sitters to choose one side or the other. You end up with people who would make no complaint over a mere "civil union" cry out against "gay marriage" simply because you forced their hand. Worse, the movement's name calling ("homophobe", "bigot", "fascist") tends to harden people's resolve, rather than engage their minds over the issue.

	16-12-2004 21:12									#54
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quote: Originally posted by gunkulator Worse, the movement's name calling ("homophobe", "bigot", "fascist") tends to harden people's resolve, rather than engage their minds over the issue.

I agree with you. Some individual activists often fail to distinguish truly homophobic bigots from those who are ambivalent about the issue, or are sincerely ignorant about the issue and need more insight on why gays believe marriage is important for them.


As I already said, marriage is important for gay couples, for the same reasons it is important for straight couples.

	16-12-2004 21:25									#55
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I have an idea. To make things fair ban marriage for straight people too.

	16-12-2004 21:35									#56
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But omg things are already fair as straight people can't marry people of the same gender any more than gay people can!!!1

	16-12-2004 22:40									#57
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We already have marriage laws that impose christian morality onto everyone else. Opposition to gay marriage is just another facet of those beliefs. Would some of the comments be different if this question was put forth by a moslem or mormon.

	16-12-2004 22:45									#58
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ALAN KEYES SAYS TEH HOMOS ARE HEDONISTS AND RUINING THE INSTATOOTION OF MARRIAGE!@!@

	17-12-2004 02:43									#59
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quote: Tyranny of the majority is antithetical to the principle of fairness and respect for those who are different from you

Tyranny of the majority doesn't make democracy bad. It is persecution of the minority that makes it bad....tolerance is democracy's gift. It doesn't have to bow down and, forgive the pun, take it up the ass from everyone who wants some new rights protection.

As far as gays go. You must distinguish between civil unions and marriage; civil unions being that which would provide legal solvency to your list of complaints, and marriage being an institution steeped in religious and straight traditions.

You can win the civil unions argument on a good day. You cannot justify changing the definition of marriage in large part because of the resulting harms - firstly, that you would undermine one of the country's most basic principles and institutions by removing procreation from the equation, and secondly, you would open up the gates for a chilling effect "I want to marry six men" mentality.

Leave it the way it is.

	17-12-2004 02:58									#60
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom They're called bears. My friend went to a rubber/fetish club and was told that with his build (tall, lean, muscular hairy) he apparently is an 'otter'.

Wow, I didn't know the furry fetishes were widespread in the gay community.